Atkins Diet is dangerous pseudo-science

[ciphergoth]

The Atkins Diet is a pile of dangerous pseudo-science. Not that this comes as a surprise, but here's the word from Dr Susan Jebb of the Medical Research Council's Human Nutrition Research Centre.

(Note: questions about TrustFlow here will be deleted, post them in trustmetrics.)

Update: Post made friends-only. Thanks to babysimon for pointing out that vampwillow had invited people in atkins_uk to join the thread, resulting in some incredibly lunatic contributions. Update: Public again.

Comments

[wechsler.livejournal.com]

I'll admit, I saw that in the Daily Tube and had one of those "Is that supposed to be news?" moments.

[babysimon]

To a lot of the population, yes.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_nicolai_/]

So how do people like, say, natives of the Arctic who live almost entirely on meat (at least traditionally), stay healthy?
Is it because they eat nearly all of an animal, rather than just the bits Europeans typically butcher and serve with 2 veg?
(I don't dispute that cutting out big parts of your usual diet is a bad idea; I'm just wondering how people who have no choice about the all-meat diet cope)

[juliet]

How healthy *do* they actually stay? In particular, what's the average life expectancy? I'd expect in that sort of situation, life expectancy would be pretty low (for a number of reasons), so things like cholesterol problems would be unlikely to show up.

[drreagan.livejournal.com]

Yeah, the do eat more of the animal than generally western europeans do. They also have evlolved/adapted a metabolism that is somewhat more suited to that particular way of life over the past 10 thousand years.

[thegreenman.livejournal.com]

They have been genetically selected by their environment over thousands of years to tolerate a high protein/high fat diet (there was nothing else to eat).

Now that they have mostly ditched their hunter/gatherer lifestyle, switched to a more conventional north american lifetyle and diet and interbread with non local people they are seeing disease and mortality rates comparable to other Americans and Canadians.

[babysimon]

Incidentally, how old was Dr Atkins when he died of a heart attack? I've heard conflicting reports...

[shadow-jess.livejournal.com]

72, i believe.

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear.

[vampwillow]

Well, where should I start. Let's see...

1. The 'Atkins' diet is not one diet but four, starting with a greatly restricted carbohydrate intake (20g per day) and then increasing slowly until you stay at a constant weight. By this point you can eat most foods if you balance the numbers.

2. Whether it is 'pseudo-science' is an interesting question. Atkins, in his books, quotes substantial amounts of research that show if followed through the stages it is very good for you.

3. There are vested interests in nearly all parts of the food industry, and research in this area is no exception.

Personally:
1. I started Atkins / lo-carb in May. I was well overweight and had a BMI of over 34. 'Healthy' is a BMI of 20-25. (Click here for the BBC's BMI Calculator).

2. For many years I have had high blood pressure and my family history suggests this will not lead to good things happening to me.

3. Since starting the lo-carb 'lifestyle':
(a) I have lost two stone
(b) my BMI is now below 30 (just)
(c) my BP has dropped by over 30 and stayed there
(d) I have had no migraines (I used to experience bad migraines every 3-4 weeks, during which I couldn't do anything for a day or two)
(e) I feel much more active and healthier and friends and my mother tell me I also look a lot healthier
(f) side-effect: I can get into smaller-sized clothes.

I started lo-carb not because of wanting to be thinner, but because I don't want to die from high blood pressure and related illness. Cholesterol also drops on this diet and, frankly, I'm annoyed at the medical establishment taking the producers' penny and not accepting that there are other ways to be healthy.

If lo-carb didn't work I wouldn't do it. It is more expensive (all that fresh veg especially - I have never eaten so much in the way of vegetables!) and I'll admit I do miss bread, rice and pasta. But it works.

Re: Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear.

[babysimon]

the medical establishment taking the producers' penny

Are you really saying medical opposition to the Atkins diet is commercially driven? That's quite an extreme position... [Instead, I predict food manufacturers starting lo-carb product ranges - see Michelob Ultra for an early example.]

If lo-carb didn't work I wouldn't do it. [...] I have never eaten so much in the way of vegetables!

Do you think these statements may be connected?

[bootpunk.livejournal.com]

Actually, putting your body into ketosis is pretty much hard & fast science. That part at least isn't in dispute. It may not be healthy, but you're going to start dropping weight.

I think the most dangerous thing about Atkins is that most people, led on by the "high quality" reporting of the mass media, have no real clue as to what it is all about. I suspect a great many people don't read to the end of the book. The diet certainly seems to work for some people, but then restricted calorie diets always lead to weight loss, and this one has the benefits of making people feel less hungry. I know I can handle being hungry all the time while dieting, but a lot of people - maybe most - can't.

I am badly in need of shedding a lot of weight, but hopefully I'll be hitting the pool amd doing some extremely hard training in order to do so. Its either that or the goth-plan diet, but I don't have easy access to the chemicals up here.

Its actually quite ironic to see ciphergoth commenting on diets, as he has one of the nicest figures around.

[vampwillow]

Atkins / lo-carb is not *neccessarily* calorie-restricted. Indeed, I suspect my calorie intake may have actually gone UP in the initial stages, but most days now I'm eating less. That may, of course, be due to the very hot weather making me need less energy and hence need to eat less.

Muscle, of course, weighs more than fat.

I agree with your last line too ;-)

[abbykatt.livejournal.com]

Hmm.. the diet seems to work fantastic for me.
I guess fat people will do anything to prevent other people loosing weight. :)

[babysimon]

I guess fat people will do anything to prevent other people loosing weight. :)

Paul, you've been rumbled. Learn to accept that you're a fat bastard.

[(Anonymous)]

No surprise to me that this diet has a few *ahem!* problems. I suppose the fact it seems to work for celebrities has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact they also have personal trainers, dieticians on-hand, etc etc.
I spent three years working as a researcher for the MRC and for every piece of research that says 'go left' there's another that says 'go right'. I stopped believing in recent scientific developments a while ago, better to wait until something is reasonably conclusively established rather than jumping on bandwagons.
Incidentally, Dr Susan Jebb has just appeared on the ITV lunchtime news to reiterate the point of their research. I suppose we'll just have to wait to see how many celebs start dropping off with heart-attacks.

*Lostat*

Ummm....

[ruis.livejournal.com]

Can you tell me which of those articles actually gives a scientifically sound reason why the Atkins Diet is a pile of dangerous pseudo-science.

Reading the first few it appears that they are using the tried and tested technique of fighting pseudo-science with pseudo-science.

Re: Ummm....

[thekumquat.livejournal.com]

The BBC article refers to her saying we don't know about the long term effects and that some of the lo-carb claims are pseudoscience - fair enough. haven't seen anywhere stating that such things are dangerous, but then I don't read the Sun/Mail/Fallen Standard much.

Although I really don't understand this guy:
Lyndel Costain, a dietician, said people should not do the Atkin's diet or similar diets over the long term.
"The problems with that sort of diet is that it may be low in fibre.
"You might also restrict very important vitamins and minerals that you get in fruit and vegetables and wholegrains.

The main point of these lo-carb diets is the amount of fruit and veg involved! Which fill you up! And are full of fibre! These diets may have problems, but low fibre is not going to be one of them unless you have someone eating only meat and cheese, in which case they are likely to have heatlh problems (rather like the claims for vegetarian diets being really healthy which may be true but not if your veggie diet centers on pizza and egg'n'chips)

[ciphergoth.livejournal.com]

Just to clarify one point: the Atkins diet certainly "works" in the sense that if you follow it properly you are almost certain to lose weight. If you've ever followed a calorie-controlled diet (or been involved in doing the sums for one) you'll know that a big chunk of your daily calories come from carbs and other things banned by the Atkins diet, so if you follow the diet you're essentially on a very weird low-calorie diet. However a more conventional calorie-controlled diet will be just as effective for weight loss and much better for you.

I'm astonished by the idea that opposition to the Atkins Diet comes from vested interests. What's the MRC's interest in this then? I didn't know they were funded by Wonderbread.

[chiller.livejournal.com]

Sorry to butt in, but the link between the established medical fraternity as is and food manufacture is fairly obvious, isn't it?

If people actually ate a healthy diet, the need for pharmeceuticals would decrease at an astonishing rate.

Sensible eating?

[pavlos.livejournal.com]

I don't understand the suggestions that there's some "medical conspiracy" or "fat people's conspiracy" to prevent people losing weight! If anything I would expect to find the opposite, that is number of vested interests and quack science selling diets.

I'm opposed to "diets" as strict regimes, and especially as products. to be honest I think they're as effective as religious services or self-help books: That is, very effective at giving you some discipline and morale to accomplish your goals, if you go for that sort of thing. Taken passively, they're as effective as horoscopes.

I think "diet" as in eating good quality and TASTY food, fresh, at sensible quantities and intervals, is an excellent idea. It will make you healthy and active and improve your sex life! but save your money from the diet subscription and spend it carefully at the grocery store.

Pavlos

to all Atkins desciples:

[ajva.livejournal.com]

I am eating a big pile of chips right now.

Have a nice day.

Re: to all Atkins desciples:

[x-mass.livejournal.com]

I am
nearly 5 stone down on what i was 6 months ago

I wonder...

[babysimon]

...whether those who report huge success with Atkins previously had diets which were high in simple carbohydrates - refined sugars et al?

Re: I wonder...

[thekumquat.livejournal.com]

Quite possibly. I know cakes and things are my healthy eating downfall. Also if you do eat huge amounts of fruit and veg it does fill you up quite well, which would lead to eating less calorific stuff.

I ought to look for a paper I once saw which showed that people who keep track of what they eat, whether they're following any particular plan or not, eat significantly less.

[jhg.livejournal.com]

Well, DUH!!!


J

[babysimon]

Wondering where all those people you've never heard of are coming from?

http://www.livejournal.com/community/atkins_uk/9335.html

[vampwillow]

and I had apologised to Paul and removed the link before you posted this, and in part it was because I was feeling rather under attack as at the beginning I was the only person supporting a lo-carb diet as being helthier...

Maybe I shouldn't have supported lo-carb at all, but I think the discussion would not have been so interesting.

Apologies again to Paul, but I would point out also that discussions about this article are currently all over the place, and not just connected with his original posting.

[lovelybug.livejournal.com]

Normally at this point in an LJ thread I'd be grabbing the popcorn. But not sure that's on the Atkins plan. Which just goes to show what a bad idea it is ;)

[ciphergoth.livejournal.com]

*grin* especially not sugared popcorn :-)

[lucybond.livejournal.com]

I kept to a low-carb diet a couple of weeks back.

No bread, white flour, corn, sugar, rice, alcohol, caffiene, pasta or potatoes.

I didn't count carbs, or avoid fruit, so it wasn't exactly Atkin's, but I did find out a couple of important things from it:

1) If I live on veggie meat substitutes & veg, like my SO does, I gain weight & he doesn't, I get exhausted in the afternoon & generally tired & flabby. Ergo I needed more protein & less carbs in my diet.

2) I function better with breakfast.

So although I've decided not to follow Atkins, it has taught me something about my metabolism.

And if you follow a diet that cuts out sugar & white flour, you find yourself having to avoid a whole heap of junk. There was *no* processed snack-food to be found in the shops that wasn't high-carb. Especially in the 'low-fat' sections of the supermarkets.

Now, I have a piece of meat with my veg, while the SO has veggieburgers. I feel much better.

[feanelwa.livejournal.com]

Now I haven't read Atkins's book, because I don't have time, I don't want to go on a diet and I don't care what it says. But two points:

1) The human brain runs on glucose or ketones. Running on glucose it is a supercomputer. Running on ketones it goes, but it hurts. Your liver can make glucose from proteins and fats and send it to the brain but not nearly as well as it can from starch. However if you sugar cram, you will also mess up your metabolism and your head will hurt. If you go with either extreme your brain will not thank you for it.

2) Amino acids are poisonous in the body unless they are built together as proteins. If you eat so much protein that amino acids are coming into your blood faster than leaving it, many parts of your body will not work very well.

3) Cholesterol: (here (http://www.coursework.info/i/1278.html))
"Diet is one such environmental issue that affects the development of coronary disease. In your blood three types of cholesterol affect the coronary heart condition: - low-density lipoproteins (LDLs), high-density lipoproteins (HDLs), and very-low-density lipoproteins (VLDLs).

LDLs are considered to be the bad cholesterol molecules as they can accumulate on the walls of your arteries, forming plaques causing arterosclerosis. This only occurs if LDL particles are in excess and therefore stay in the blood. If LDL receptors do not receive the LDL particles or there are to few of them then they are not broken down in the liver and so they are deposited on the artery walls. HDL picks up excess LDL and takes it to the liver to be disposed of so a higher concentration of HDL than LDL is good. High LDL levels are caused by eating too much fat from dairy products, meats and hydrogenated oils."

If you follow the link, I didnt write it, I know you don't spell "affecting" like that, but they are right about the cholesterol.

[x-mass.livejournal.com]

um on Atkins teh dat points to a drop in vldl and ldl cholesterl and a rise in HDL

I'm intreted by the statement that HDl's come from hydrogenated fats - are you sure on this point?

Just to say <lj user="ciphergoth">

[kingginger.livejournal.com]

Wicked thread :-)

LOL

And dont worry - I'm not going to throw any more "but I'm on the atkins diet and..." in...

:-)

[(Anonymous)]

What amuses me is that all these people are jumping on the Atkins bandwagon when it's only been around for a few years, whereas a diet which dates back to Biblical times (vegetarianism) is still seen as stupid, radical, and something only hippies practice.

Yet there are very, very few longterm vegetarians who are overweight.

So...thousands of years and entire cultures or thousands of days and one man? Who are you betting your health on?

[lproven.livejournal.com]

The veggies=slim thing is an urban legend. A fat veggie writes.

Most of the longterm veggies and vegans I know are slightly overweight.

[neenaw.livejournal.com]

Dr Atkins was apparently a stone overweight and died of a heart attack! My personal feelings on the matter is that there are some valid points in the diet, like eating more protein and being careful of refined carbohydrates or whatever, but really all you need to do to lose weight is consume less calories than you use. People seem to lose a lot of weight on it without getting much thinner, ime. It certainly doesn't look terribly healthy to me and this is why I don't try it!

[ciphergoth.livejournal.com]

Atkins died of a brain haemmorage following an accident.

http://www.livejournal.com/users/ciphergoth/192297.html?thread=1379881

[paroxysmal.livejournal.com]

i got my info from the amount of an article i read last semester in an anthropology class that i still remember.

and i never said all arctic tribes were eskimos... or "Inuits" if you want me to be accurate... i was just throwing in my little piece.