Paul Crowley

I was kinda trying to say that but I took longer...;-)

From:

trishpiglet.livejournal.com

And then there's failure to frubble due to your partner's other partner being someone you dislike intensely because they're up themselves and full of shit - which is also very reasonable IMHO and qualifies.

xxx

From:

mrph.livejournal.com

That's not exclusive to poly, though - I know a lot of people who get equally unhappy when close platonic friends get involved with people like that. I think it's a basic "why is someone I like/love/think highly of getting entangled with someone like that" reaction... poly just adds some new and awkward permutations to the mix.

On the flip side - on a couple of occasions, I've failed to get involved with fairly wonderful people solely because their primary was someone I just couldn't cope with. Possibly a wrong/unfair decision on my part, but *shrug*. Them's the breaks

From:

lizw.livejournal.com

I think it's reasonable grounds for failing to frubble, but not necessarily reasonable grounds for going beyond that to feeling jealousy. It has to affect my relationship with my partner in an identifiable, detrimental way before I feel it's reasonable for me to be jealous.

From:

Don't you get jealous?
Actually, no. I'm not 100% convinced that there's such a thing as jealousy; a whole lot of other emotions (insecurity, time envy etc) get called that.

I would define jealousy as a form of being protective - I tend to view jealousy as the emotion you feel when you are trying to protect what you perceive as yours.

I do get jealous of things which I see as 'mine'. I do get protective. I don't see that, though, as necessarily being anything to do with sex. Sexual jealousy is one form of jealousy, and is based off a form of social conditioning which equates sex with a certain type of commitment.

The other night I was talking to a friend of mine and I mentioned a drunken incident involving my young man, a female friend, a bathroom and various sexual incidents.

I was asked why I seemed OK with it - why I didn't get jealous.

I actually hadn't thought about it before. I'm not polyamorous, really. I always think of myself as pretty jealous as well. But I hadn't minded at all.

The explanation I gave was that I am a very jealous person. I'm jealous of anything that threatens the things and people that are important to me. I get jealous sometimes of my dad's girlfriends - they mean that I can't just drop down and see him because he is likely to be out and about somewhere else in the country. I get jealous of my boyfriend's work when it means that he doesn't have time to see me. I would be jealous of him seeing anyone else if it meant that he cared less for me than he had done before, or if we lost what is good and decent in our relationship.

I don't see why I am going to get jealous over something which he enjoys, which makes him happy, and doesn't threaten my role in his life. I like the deal we have where we are always there for eachother, where we do talk and we are close. Sexual exclusivity does not cause that. Not being sexually exclusive can't touch that unless he and I choose to let it.

Jealousy is about being scared. It is about being scared of loosing something. I think the reason that polyamoury works so well for the people who can do this is that it takes that fear away from a lot of relationships.

It takes the fear of betrayal away - you are not having someone break a promise to you, or lie to you (which I do get utterly psychotic about - I hate being lied to). It takes away the fear of loosing someone through sex - from what I can tell people get jealous when their partners sleep with other people coz in a society in which we are told that you have to choose one person sex with another person immediately carries with it an unspoken assumption that the person who is sleeping with two people will choose one of them. Your partner sleeps with someone else - and most people see that as a step towards loosing them. Polyamoury, in theory I think, stops that because you can choose to be with two people.

I do believe in jealousy. I think it does exist. It just doesn't have to be inevitable. And I think too many people don't think through what jealousy actually means.

OK - that was a ramble - sorry for filling up your LJ with that. It was just something I've been trying to put into words for a while.

Did it make any sense at all?

From:

Yes it did. I think we're sort of saying the same thing - I'm trying to say that people imagine there's a sort of "pure jealousy", wherein your partner having sex with someone else will make you unhappy *in and of itself*, rather than for some further reason like because it's breach of a promise, or because it gives you fear for the relationship, or whatever. The "pure form" has no answer than either being monogamous or putting up with it. But many of the other forms do have answers, and responsible poly people will look for and apply those answers.

I think the "pure form" is at the very least very much rarer than people think.

I'd be interested to know how you imagine yourself reacting in a scenario like this: your young man leaves for London tomorrow for a works do he can't get out of, and he's staying the night in a hotel. He comes to you and says "Remember X from my work, who you met and though was very nice? She's going to be there, but she's moving to Australia the next day. I'm pretty sure she fancies me. I've always thought she was cute and would love the chance to sleep with her before she goes, but I'd never want to do anything to hurt you. How would you feel if we were to have one last fling before she goes? If you say no, I'll honour that without question..."

I've set the scenario up this way because
* There's no issue of dishonesty or promise-breaking
* There's no time taken away from you
* There's no issue of future relationships developing
* There's none of the frubble-killing dislike that Trish mentions

so it brings a little it closer to an issue of "pure form jealousy"...

From:

hfnuala.livejournal.com

But I find this interesting.

Especially cause I frequently have 'yes, but..' bits when I'm talking to poly friends, which I think means there's something I'm missing/not understanding/some difference in axioms that I'm not aware of.

I don't think poly is wrong, I see it as a way of living your life which makes a lot of sense, but I don't feel it is for me.

I could go on about a time when I've tried it and been unhappy but that isn't really true. What actually happened was I was seeing someone, I wanted it to be exclusive, he didn't, I pretended I was OK with it so the sex wouldn't stop, I was miserable. I don't think that was really poly/non-monogamy/whatever - it was people not being honest with each *and* accepting things that weren't really what they wanted.

Which brings me to your scenario. I would say no. I'm not sure why, beyond *knowing* it would make me unhappy and I think that's a good enough reason. I could try to justify the unhappiness with stuff like what you mentioned above or with insecurity (fear the other person would be 'better' at sex than me) but it really isn't that clear. I dunno if this is the 'pure' form of jealousy you're talking about, but it is why I'm monogamous.

From:

Fair enough.

I'm really not trying to ask any monogamous people to justify why they've made that choice. I'm only trying to explain why the choices I've made work for me...

From:

hfnuala.livejournal.com

I didn't think you were. Which is why I didn't reply to the original entry.

I'm fascinated by my knee-jerk reaction - I can happily intellectually the pros of poly, but I have a gut feeling it's not for me. And I don't know why. And I'm hoping the more I write about it, the more likely that one day I'll understand why it is.

From:

ex-meta.livejournal.com

I'm quite prepared to believe that there are people who genuinely aren't poly by nature, just like I'm prepared to believe that there are people who are genuinely heterosexual. Just because I can't understand it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. :-)

From:

nickys.livejournal.com

I'm not sure about poly, but I should think that whether a person is heterosexual, homosexual or bisexual is definitely determined by their nature.

You can't decide to fancy someone, either you do or you don't and there's no logic or conscious decision there at all. You can decide what to do about it if you do fancy someone, but there isn't really a choice in who you find attractive in the first place.

What exactly makes someone appear attractive to you is a mysterious process, but I guess that if all (or maybe almost all) the people you've ever fancied are of one particular gender (or you perceive them to be of that particular gender at the time) then you can assume that you're either purely heterosexual or purely homosexual (depending on which gender it is), whereas if gender seems not to affect who you find sexually attractive then you're bisexual.

From:

Didn't you ask me to do that .. not so long ago?

From:

No. Sorry if it came across that way.

From:

That's how I took it .. but it's OK - I didn't mind

:)

From:

nickys.livejournal.com

Ciphergoth asked Skx to justify monogamy?

From:

It appears that wasn't the intent.

Instead I think the question was actually supposed to be 'why switch from one to the other?' (in the many to one direction).

(OT: If you use <lj user="skx"> it'll give a link to the person's name...)

From:

nickys.livejournal.com

'why switch from one to the other?

Right, I see.

I can think of a few reasons myself.
For one thing it might simply be too complicated to be poly, either due to logistics, or because of the emotional tangles involved in sorting out priorities and making sure that people don't feel neglected or hurt.
Another thing is that poly is probably quite rare, and makes many people feel quite uneasy, so your chances of getting a relationship might actually be increased if you stick to monogamy as the pool of potential candidates is larger.
Then there's always the chance that you'll meet The One and simply not want anyone else.

From:

Yeah. There's a big difference between asking someone why they made a decision and asking them to justify it.

"I've switched to a different brand of shampoo."
"Really, why?"
"WHY SHOULDN'T I? I DON'T HAVE TO JUSTIFY MY COSMETIC CHOICES TO YOU, DO I?"

From:

Not a problem.

Not even the beginnings of a problem.

I think I'd want to be sure that the girl would be happy with a pure one night stand, and wouldn't go away to Australia feeling used at all, but I think that would probably be my main concern.

*blinks*

That actually mildly surprises me. I think I'd want to know about it - I think I would be jealous if it became a private moment between the two of them - but if I felt I had the right to ask him about it afterwards then I don't think I would mind at all.

I tend to accept that I know I wouldn't mind an open relationship, but I think I disapprove of them slightly - to my mind there is something more morally right about caring for multiple people than only being in love with one person but using others for sex alone. Casual sex does seem to work with some people, but I've seen it used as a form of abuse in some ways so many times that I'm very very leery of it.

On the other hand I think I would be jealous if I was in a relationship with someone who went out with me, and then told me three months down the line that he would like to have X as a joint primary partner to me.

It wouldn't entirely matter then if he spent exactly as much time with me as he had done before - I would be jealous having gone from being the most important person in that area of his life, to being equal to someone else.

I think is probably the closest I come to pure jealousy - a kind of bratty desire to have a partner tell me that to _them_ I am the most beautiful/desirable/special person in their life. So maybe that is still protecting something specific - a kind of ego boost that you get from a partner.

From:

jhg.livejournal.com

On the other hand I think I would be jealous if I was in a relationship with someone who went out with me, and then told me three months down the line that he would like to have X as a joint primary partner to me.

It wouldn't entirely matter then if he spent exactly as much time with me as he had done before - I would be jealous having gone from being the most important person in that area of his life, to being equal to someone else.

Oh god, I do *so* know what you mean.

J

From:

lapis-lazuli.livejournal.com

Jealousy is a result of insecurity for me: it's caused by not being sure of where I am with someone. So, I'm much more likely to get jealous over a new partner or a casual partner than with my spouse.

In the above scenario, I'd wholeheartedly encourage him to play, and then to share all the sordid details (with demonstrations if necessary! ;) when he got home. I'd get a big grin over knowing that he was having fun.

I'm changing the variables one at a time in my head, to figure out what scenarios *would* bother me and why... but that'll require more thought, and I need to be off to meetings now, so I'll stop here.

From:

OK - random question.

Would the 'share all the sordid details' thing be important to you? Coz I know it would to me and I'm not sure why. On an intellectual level I would feel that he should be totally entitled to keep the whole night as a personal memory between the two people there but I would really want to know about it, and the knowing about it is what would stop me being jealous.

Not sure why...

From:

lapis-lazuli.livejournal.com

That's a good question...

Honestly, I do think that's part of it, though like you I'm not sure why. I think part of me would feel included by knowing he was willing to talk about it with me. Part of me would want to know because I'd feel better once I was sure that he really did have fun and that it was a good experience for him.

After I've been with other partners, usually I'm gushing to tell him the details, and he's not ready to hear them yet, he just wants cuddle time. Then gradually he asks the questions he's ready for answers to, until he ends up knowing pretty much the whole thing.

From:

I don't think this is an unreasonable limit to set at all; if his "total entitlement" only extends to having sex with her at all because it's been negotiated, then it only extends as far as the limits you negotiate between you.

And getting all the sordid details is one of the great perks of poly I think! But it might be fairest to make sure the other person knew that was going to happen, which you could do in a positive way just by saying "I can't wait to tell Sally all about this" or suchlike...

From:

Oh yeah, one other thing:

http://www.livejournal.com/talkread.bml?journal=ciphergoth&itemid=102769

From:

*looks apologetic*

I'll go learn the english language...

From:

I understand your explaination, but I'd like to ask you a couple of questions if I may?

Would your feelings change if this were to happen repeatedly (possibly even with different women)? (At what point, if any, would it stop being OK and start being something to be upset by, or be jealous of?)

Would you expect your partner to have similar feelings if you were to do the same thing?

From:

valkyriekaren.livejournal.com

by the way, I don't know if you read Alixandrea's journal, but there's an interesting discussion about poly going on there too.

From:

Ah, found it:

http://www.livejournal.com/talkread.bml?journal=alixandrea&itemid=30178

thanks!

From:

ruis.livejournal.com

What do you see as the difference between being settled down and having stable things in your life. I consider myself to have settled down years ago and as far as I'm aware have shown no sign of spiritual death.

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