Ask an atheist

[ciphergoth]

In a discussion about religion in wildeabandon's journal, meihua writes: "this seems to have turned into me interrogating you. [...] Is there anything you'd like to challenge me on, instead?"

I think it's only fair enough to open up my own beliefs to the challenges of others, since I'm always keen to respond when theists invite me to give my perspective on some aspect of their beliefs as wildeabandon has in a series of recent posts. So, is there anything you'd like me to respond to?

Rules:

• You don't have to read this thread. This post is an invitation, not a challenge; if you don't like to read me talking about this then feel free to skip this.
• Be honest. Please don't advance arguments you don't personally buy, unless you're also an atheist and you want to discuss how best to counter it.
• If you come to change your mind about the validity of an argument, think about how you can generalise the lesson learned so as not to misassess similar arguments in future.
• Don't just match the politeness of what you reply to, but try to exceed it - see Postel's Law. Otherwise it is very easy to end up with a thread where each contributor thinks they are merely matching the snark level of the other, and yet the thread starts with the very slightest suggestion of rudeness and finishes with "please choke on a bucket of cocks".

Comments

[mskala.livejournal.com]

All the ones who believe that my remaining a non-atheist is 100% okay, acceptable, and in no way indicative of any kind of failing on my part.

That does exclude the possibility of some forms of "criticism."

[ciphergoth.livejournal.com]

What I'm getting at is, can you point me at a specific example of such an atheist?

[mskala.livejournal.com]

So far I've been favourably impressed with what webcowgirl has had to say in this discussion right here. I don't think I've encountered her before and can't comment on past performance.

[ciphergoth.livejournal.com]

She's made two comments on this thread, and neither are I think direct criticisms of religion itself, so I don't think she's a counterexample.

[mskala.livejournal.com]

I'm not clear on why you want me to produce an example of an atheist who gives "direct criticisms of religion itself" while being respectful, at all. Isn't that your job? Hey, I want you to produce an example of a theist whom you agree is not wrong! That seems about as reasonable.

Are you only attempting to demonstrate that my definition of "respect" and your definition of "criticism" are incompatible? I hoped they wouldn't be, but it's looking like maybe they are. I've attempted to leave open the possibility that an atheist could exist who would be both critical and respectful, but it looks like I cannot produce an example satisfactory to you of that actually occurring. Really, I left open the possibility because I can't prove it's impossible and I really hope it happens - not because I think it's at all common. The atheists I get along best with - and the theists I get along best with - are the ones who don't spend a lot of resources on promoting their views to non-participants, and it looks like they'd all be categorically unacceptable for your purposes as not being "critical" enough.

It seems especially unlikely that we can agree on a specific example of a respectful critic of religion without first agreeing on objective definitions of both "respect" and "criticism." (And probably "religion" also, but maybe that can wait.) As it stands, either of us can simply reject any candidate proposed by the other.

[ciphergoth.livejournal.com]

I believe that all theists are necessarily wrong, so of course I can cite no theists who are not wrong.

If you think that there is a parallel here between that and what I ask of you, it seems like you accept what I'm trying to argue, that it's impossible for a critic of religion not to be what you consider disrespectful.

[mskala.livejournal.com]

And I should add, because this is actually really important - the atheists I know who do not spend a lot of resources on attempting to promote atheism are, by thus acting, presenting a much stronger argument in favour of atheism than, for instance, anything I've ever seen from you. If I ever did give up believing in deities it would be because of them, not because of what you seem to have in mind when you use the word "criticism."

Similarly, the only times I've ever even remotely considered conversion to Christianity, it's been in reaction to some of my friends who are people of the kind I'd like to be, are also Christian, and don't tell me about it unless I ask. The Christians who knock on my door to warn me the Bible says I'm going to Hell are presenting strong arguments against their system, even if they don't know it.

My suggestion, which you of course are free to ignore, is that instead of worrying so much about your right to criticise you'd do well to think about what you want to accomplish by criticism, and whether your actions are likely to have the result you want.

[ciphergoth.livejournal.com]

Thank you for your concern...

[webcowgirl.livejournal.com]

I might still challenge you on your beliefs and why you have them but only if I thought you could handle it.

I am actually very tolerant of other people's beliefs, including my friends who are pagans/witches/conservative Muslims, but, then, I am a non-evangelical atheist, unlike Paul.

[wildeabandon.livejournal.com]

Do you consider "being incorrect" to be a failing, because finding an atheist who doesn't think that being a theist is incorrect is gonna be hard.

[mskala.livejournal.com]

No, but do you consider "being incorrect" to be a failing? Many atheists appear to, and if someone holds that view it's very difficult for them to communicate with people they think are incorrect.

[wildeabandon.livejournal.com]

No, but do you consider "being incorrect" to be a failing?
I think it's always better to be correct than to be incorrect, so in a sense, yes. On that basis I much prefer it when people challenge my views so that if I am wrong I can move to being right, and if I'm right then I can be more confident in it because I'll have done more examination of the evidence.

Many atheists appear to, and if someone holds that view it's very difficult for them to communicate with people they think are incorrect.
I'm not an atheist, but I find it much easier to communicate with people who think I'm incorrect than with people who try to do the doublethink of disagreeing with me whilst refusing to say that I'm wrong.

[naath.livejournal.com]

I don't think I've met a greater number of atheists who would think that you being a theist is a great failing on you behalf that I have met Christians who would think that being the Wrong Sort Of Christian (let alone atheist or other theist) is a massive failing. I'm not sure how you could debate beliefs and religion with anyone who disagreed with you without their being some presumption that they thought you were in at least some way mistaken; of course you are entitled to be and to remain mistaken and to believe that I am the one who is mistaken.

I do think a lot of people are much more likely to notice that they are being attacked than to notice that they are attacking - for instance I feel in this subthread that you are attacking ciphergoth and at least the majority of the set of "all atheists" (of which I am a part) by making your points; however at the same time you do have a good point in that at least some atheist discourse is directed at deliberately taking the piss out of and/or being rude to/about Christians and other theists, so I can see why you are making this point. It's difficult to have a reasoned discussion about a matter without getting past the "you disagree with me therefore you are attacking me" mindset though, I do understand that, I have it myself a lot of the time and it's been the cause of many a foot-in-mouth incident on my behalf.

I suspect that this difference in ease-of-perception is part of why I would say "it's more likely that a Christian would be rude in that way" - what I perceive as this sort of attack coming from a Christian is probably a lot broader than what you would think of as an attack from your theistic perspective of my atheist beliefs.

[mskala.livejournal.com]

I don't think I've met a greater number of atheists who would think that you being a theist is a great failing on you behalf that I have met Christians who would think that being the Wrong Sort Of Christian (let alone atheist or other theist) is a massive failing.

Yes, many Christians do that too and I am as upset by it when it comes from Christians as when it comes from atheists.

[wildeabandon.livejournal.com]

It seems to me that by the definition of respect that you're using you're not showing any respect towards my belief that sexist beliefs are a massive failing.