Ask an atheist

[ciphergoth]

In a discussion about religion in wildeabandon's journal, meihua writes: "this seems to have turned into me interrogating you. [...] Is there anything you'd like to challenge me on, instead?"

I think it's only fair enough to open up my own beliefs to the challenges of others, since I'm always keen to respond when theists invite me to give my perspective on some aspect of their beliefs as wildeabandon has in a series of recent posts. So, is there anything you'd like me to respond to?

Rules:

• You don't have to read this thread. This post is an invitation, not a challenge; if you don't like to read me talking about this then feel free to skip this.
• Be honest. Please don't advance arguments you don't personally buy, unless you're also an atheist and you want to discuss how best to counter it.
• If you come to change your mind about the validity of an argument, think about how you can generalise the lesson learned so as not to misassess similar arguments in future.
• Don't just match the politeness of what you reply to, but try to exceed it - see Postel's Law. Otherwise it is very easy to end up with a thread where each contributor thinks they are merely matching the snark level of the other, and yet the thread starts with the very slightest suggestion of rudeness and finishes with "please choke on a bucket of cocks".

Comments

[mskala.livejournal.com]

I'm not clear on why you want me to produce an example of an atheist who gives "direct criticisms of religion itself" while being respectful, at all. Isn't that your job? Hey, I want you to produce an example of a theist whom you agree is not wrong! That seems about as reasonable.

Are you only attempting to demonstrate that my definition of "respect" and your definition of "criticism" are incompatible? I hoped they wouldn't be, but it's looking like maybe they are. I've attempted to leave open the possibility that an atheist could exist who would be both critical and respectful, but it looks like I cannot produce an example satisfactory to you of that actually occurring. Really, I left open the possibility because I can't prove it's impossible and I really hope it happens - not because I think it's at all common. The atheists I get along best with - and the theists I get along best with - are the ones who don't spend a lot of resources on promoting their views to non-participants, and it looks like they'd all be categorically unacceptable for your purposes as not being "critical" enough.

It seems especially unlikely that we can agree on a specific example of a respectful critic of religion without first agreeing on objective definitions of both "respect" and "criticism." (And probably "religion" also, but maybe that can wait.) As it stands, either of us can simply reject any candidate proposed by the other.

[ciphergoth.livejournal.com]

I believe that all theists are necessarily wrong, so of course I can cite no theists who are not wrong.

If you think that there is a parallel here between that and what I ask of you, it seems like you accept what I'm trying to argue, that it's impossible for a critic of religion not to be what you consider disrespectful.