Praying nurses

[ciphergoth]

Nurse suspended without pay for offering to pray for a patient during a home visit - what do you think?

(Snowed in today, trying to work from home but it's not really a workplace atmosphere around here today :-)

Updated: the patient is described as a Christian in the article. One wonders if this means Christian as in really a Christian, or "Christian I suppose" which AFAICT is the majority religion of the UK. Updated: actually "have Christian beliefs myself" is more like the phrasing I'd expect from someone who takes it seriously.

Comments

[autopope.livejournal.com]

She was visiting the patient to change wound dressings -- presumably for leg ulcers. This suggests the patient was immobile and therefore a captive audience for her god-bothering. Highly unprofessional, to say the least.

[ciphergoth.livejournal.com]

I think the nurse shouldn't have done it, and that it is a disciplinary matter.
I think that suspension without pay seems incredibly excessive for a first offence. Of course this nurse may have received endless warnings about this sort of thing.
I think I generally don't like it when people complain because *someone else* might be offended - it drives me up the wall that people do this so much at BiCon.
I think I prefer "Would you like me to pray for you?" to "I'll pray for you", but not by much. For some reason, "You'll be in my prayers" winds me up a lot less.

[feorag.livejournal.com]

It's at least her second offence.

Plus, the prayer studies have shown that patients do worse when they know someone is praying for her.

[thekumquat.livejournal.com]

I agree - she shoudln't have done it and as the patient says in that article, an offer of prayer could be interpreted as the patient being in a very bad way. But suspension sounds most excessive for a first time.

The thing with 'I'll pray for you' is there's no polite way to disagree - "I'd really rather you didn't" doesn't go down well.

At least things have improved in the NHS - when I was born my mother was explicitly told that if I wasn't baptised I wouldn't live through the night. For years she wanted to take me back to the hospital and do "ner ner na ner ner" - but then my parents did eventually decide to name me after the guardian angel while hoping for the best...

[wildbadger.livejournal.com]

I agree, but also think it depends to some extent on the nature of the interaction. Offers of prayer can be either sincere expressions of goodwill, or quite unpleasant and manipulative.

Compulsory religion in schools concerns me far more, as the audience is equally captive.

[emarkienna.livejournal.com]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/feb/02/nurse-prayer-suspended refers to a previous similar incident: Petrie said she had been reprimanded over her faith before, in October, when she gave a homemade prayer card to an elderly patient. She said: "He was delighted with it, but his carer was not."

I think that suspension without pay still seems excessive. But can't she just pray to get her job back?

[cyberpunkgrrl.livejournal.com]

I was just reading that...

On one hand, at least she didn't force it on her, and actually asked first (which is more than some would do)... On the other hand, it is a little presumptious that someone would want to be prayed for, or even that they were the same religion as them.

I don't think it's worth her losing her job over, though!

[mooism.livejournal.com]

The patient is a Christian, so I see no problem with the nurse's conduct.

[ciphergoth.livejournal.com]

What does it say that the patient themselves didn't see it that way (and in fact declined the offer)?

[cookwitch.livejournal.com]

Part of me thinks it is an overreaction on the patient's part. However, if you are a Christian and wish to pray for someone you do not have to tell them. The power of prayer is not dependent on being right there with the person. Surely you could just get on and do it?

I find the whole thing quite odd, to be honest. I read it yesterday and went "Eh?"

[redcountess]

The patient doesn't want the nurse to get the sack, but I do think there should be some sort of disciplinary hearing, especially if this is not the first time she's done this (as suggested in an earlier comment). If the nurse feels so strongly about her faith she should take orders (to be a nun) - there are plenty of orders that still nurse.

[cookwitch.livejournal.com]

Go from offering to pray straight to being a nun? That's a mighty jump.

I think that offering to pray for someone isn't of itself offensive, just possibly open to misinterpretation. The thing is, you don't NEED to tell someone you will pray for them, you can just go home and do it, thus not risking anyone being offended. I find it strange that she felt the need to ask when she could just go and add them to her prayer list.

[alextiefling.livejournal.com]

She's a Baptist. I don't think Baptists have nuns.

[andrewducker]

I don't like people objecting "in case someone else is offended".

I don't think it's appropriate _in general_. But if they got chatting, and the patient told her she was a Christian then it might have been a reasonable thing to offer.

Without video footage of the event I don't think I could make a decision.

[cookwitch.livejournal.com]

Absolutely.

[drdoug.livejournal.com]

I don't think we have nearly enough information to come to judgement about this specific instance. All of the information about what happened comes from the nurse; the statement from the employer is carefully evasive about the specifics.

It would certainly seem like an over-reaction if the nurse's account is accurate and there's no previous. If she was more upfront about it than she's making out, and this was far from the first complaint, and she'd been warned about this formally ... then it would seem entirely appropriate.

We don't know any of that.

(Some reports say that she does have previous, but from years and years ago. Again, if she's not put a foot wrong between then and now: over-reaction. If she'd been causing trouble on this matter continually since then: entirely appropriate.)

[drdoug.livejournal.com]

(Just been reading more reports: blimey, there seems to be a range of accounts here. Was the previous 'in October' or 1985?! (October 1999?) Coming round to thinking employer's action was probably reasonable, but the diversity in the reports worries me that we're not getting a full picture. Though my strong suspicions are not to be too concerned that a great injustice has taken place.)

[djm4]

I don't think I know enough about it.

The facts as presented could cover everything from the nurse, as part of a conversation in which the patient said she was a Christian, asking whether in that case she'd like the nurse to pray for her, to the nurse forcefully and aggressively asking to be allowed to pray for her despite the patient obviously not wanting her to. In the former case I don't think any disciplinary action should be taken; suspension without pay seems harsh for the latter, but as a repeat offence I suppose it might be warranted.

And, of course, we've no idea whether the nurse is at all liked at her work. If she's known as 'that annoying religious nutter who creeps us all out', any excuse to get rid of her might seem reasonable to her employers.

I suspect the truth is somewhat in between. It seems odd to me to discipline a nurse for something of this nature that the patient themselves didn't complain about (I can see that it would be appropriate in some circumstances, but here the degree of actual offence - or lack of it - does seem significant).

[palmer1984.livejournal.com]

I don't think she should have been suspended without pay. I think treating workers in insecure jobs like this is far worse than potentially offending someone by offering to pray for them.

[palmer1984.livejournal.com]

Although yes, it is mildly innappropriate, and she should have had some sort of written warning.

[purplerabbits.livejournal.com]

The Guardian article makes it clear that the nurse offers to pray for patients on a regular basis and considers it a valuable part of the care she gives, which bothers me, since I don't think a reprimand would work. If she loses her job because she refuses to stop telling/asking patients she's praying for them, I don't have a problem with that, it sounds like a suspension is the only way to make her stop while they think about it.

And as almost no-one has said, though I don't like people saying "I'm not offended but someone might me" I can totally understand how a 70+ year old housebound person might use that form of words out of fear of being too much trouble or causing offence.

[ciphergoth.livejournal.com]

Your second para makes a valuable point!

[misterfallen.livejournal.com]

Meh. I can see as how someone would take it badly, but I think if someone offered to do that for me, I'd be quite touched, whether I shared their faith or not. Unless they were offering to do it instead of treat me...

Oh, and a girl called Selene asked me to say hi from herself, Ben and Alex... :)

[ciphergoth.livejournal.com]

Hello Selene! Long time no see!

[runesandmen.livejournal.com]

Difficult, I do agree with cookwitch above, you don't need to tell someone that you are going to pray for them. My mother regularly prays for patients. She never tells them though. Just sends little prayers up from time to time. Faith tends to be a fairly private and personal thing that you don't really talk about in work but it affects every part of your life, including work but in a private way. That probably didn't make any sense, sorry. Saying a wee prayer at the end of your working day in private won't really do anyone any harm but talking about it could be offensive to people of different faiths/no belief so prayer-offering was a bit clumsy.

There are dedicated people in medicine to support people in a spiritual way, ie hospital chaplains. You always get the option of seeing one as an inpatient and they do good work. Probably best to leave it to them and have the nursing treatment religion-free. I know the patient in question is being treated in the community so that's not really the issue but if she was wanting spiritual support, which she clearly didn't, referring her to such a dedicated professional, such as her own minister, would be the best plan.

[johncoxon.livejournal.com]

If she's evangelising to sick people, that's not on. Simply offering to pray for someone is perfectly acceptable, though.

[barakta]

Difficult one as versions of events vary so much.

I don't like it when people offer to pray for me, but if they accept "no thanks" or are vaguely quiet and tactful about it I can ignore it. I know for example my mum prays for me or Kirstie but in a "wishing us peace" rather than "fixing stuff she disagrees" with type of way.

The NHS is full of religious folk, it's horribly religious - it's only just recently started accepting non CofE on med stuff. I used to get harassed by hospital vicars all the time, even my mum thought they were annoying bastards and used to help me make them go away. They were second only to the "teachers" on children's wards. I seem to recall having both the vicar and teacher hassling me last time I wasn an inpatient and requesting that the nurses made them both fuck off and leave me alone kthx etc - the vicar buggered off, the teacher didn't.

[ergotia.livejournal.com]

yes - you see, the NHS being "full of religious folk" bothers me in various ways. One of those ways is the question of whether anyone would work in the NHS - or indeed any caring profession - if religion withered away completely. It is stuff like this that keeps me swinging between atheist and agnostic.

[lizw.livejournal.com]

I don't agree with the suggestion various commenters have made that she should just pray for patients without asking them. Some people who believe in gods specifically don't want to be drawn to the attention of gods other than their own without their consent - Odin, for instance, has a fearsome reputation for interfering unconsensually once people are mentioned to him, and I know people who distrust the Christian God in the same way. So I think it's generally preferable not to pray for people without their agreement. I do think it should be acceptable to ask politely whether someone wishes to give that consent, however, provided one also accepts that it is not rude for the other person to refuse; so I think the patient should not have complained and the nurse should not have been suspended, unless she was pushier about it than the story suggests.

[valkyriekaren.livejournal.com]

Deeply unprofessional. Since she claims she does this for all of her patients, she risks annoying or offending them if they don't share her beliefs. And she's in a position of authority, dealing with sick, old and vulnerable people. Shame on her.

The hospital in Derby that's called in an exorcist is rather more troubling, mind you...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/4392789/Hospital-calls-in-exorcist-after-ghost-spotted.html

[anarquistador.livejournal.com]

What I found interesing was that the NHS policy was that nurses were not supposed to use their position to promote religious or political etc. points of view. Wouldn't she only be promoting the Christian point of view if the old dear got better, presumably in some miraculous way? If she keeled over and died the next day would that be seen as promoting FSM?