The real threat to the life of the nation

[ciphergoth]

The real threat to the life of the nation, in the sense of a people living in accordance with its traditional laws and political values, comes not from terrorism but from laws such as these. That is the true measure of what terrorism may achieve. It is for Parliament to decide whether to give the terrorists such a victory.

(thanks to djm4)

Comments

[lizw.livejournal.com]

Argh. That goes much further than seemed to be expected on the news this morning, and I see they've succeeded in losing the support of Liberty (which they had for their initial suggestions after the bombings), which counts as a bit of an own goal.

[karen2205]

Except it's not for Parliament to decide - my understanding is that the current proposals (for more deportations) don't require Parliamentary approval at all since they can be done using executive powers which come from legislation Parliament has approved in the past. Unless there's a sucessful move to repeal the legislation under which Parliament granted the Home Secretary these powers, there's very little that can be done to prevent him using them.

Lord Hoffman's eloquent and above all completely correct, comments are from the case decided last December re imprisioning foreigners suspected of terrorist links, who can't be deported because their countries of origin aren't considered safe, without trial for indefinite periods of time.

[ciphergoth.livejournal.com]

I know the Hoffman quote was made in different circumstances, but it's such a good one it's worth repeating here...

[xquiq.livejournal.com]

Argh!

I understand negotiating with countries to ensure safe deportation, but 'justifying terrorism' or visiting particular bookshops takes things too far.

Many of our own people could be seen as justifying terrorism in recent statements discussing the terrorist attacks whilst condemning the Iraq war (eg George Galloway).

Equally, if it's an offence to visit a bookshop, why is the bookshop open? Is that some kind of bizarre Orwellian test? (Maybe I'm misunderstanding this one.)

I'm actually fine with deporting foreign nationals who actively incite violence against the UK, its citizens or any particular ethnic or religious group, but as seems to be par for the course with this government, this is woolly legislation which leaves scope for abuse.

[countess-sophia.livejournal.com]

re the bookshop: there's a long tradition of this kind of thing. IIRC it was pioneered in Metternich's Austria c.1815, where the secret police would allow certain cafes to stock foreign (hence liberal and seditious) papers and allegedly banned publications. They'd then watch to see who read them. Our own spooks have been known to do similar things.

[xquiq.livejournal.com]

Sadly, it appears that many readers think these moves are long overdue.

[zbyszek.livejournal.com]

people would be refused asylum if they had been involved in terrorism.
Leading to the following scenario:

Geezer: My government is torturing me: give me asylum!
His Govt: But...but...but...he's a terrorist! Yeah.
Our Govt: Fair enough. On yer bike, sunshine.

[ciphergoth.livejournal.com]

Lawyer: You can't deport him!
Govt: We have intelligence that says he's a terrorist.
Lawyer: No you don't! Show me!
Govt: Shan't.

[djm4]

Worked as the justification for invading both Afghanistan and Iraq, that one.

[lizw.livejournal.com]

Yes, this one worries me immensely, especially since I have professional experience of people who have sought asylum after being forced to work for the like of the Tamil Tigers.

[spyinthehaus.livejournal.com]

Although there is very little humour to be had here, fortunately the Sun came through with its "Ten ways to make Britain great again" headline yesterday. I'm amazed they managed to get to number 5 before they told their readers to campaign for the suspension of the Human Rights Act. It really did go:

1) Pick up litter
2) Be kind to puppies
3) Be considerate to old people
4) Give up your seat on the bus to pregnant ladies
5) Campaign for the suspension of the human rights act
6) Join a local voluntary organisation

And so on. Quite remarkable.

[pavlos.livejournal.com]

Everyone should either get pregnant or (better) simulate it with a pillow and feign tiredness on the bus. That should saturate the limited faculties of Sun readers and hopefully they won't get round to number 5.

"But if you've got nothing to hide, what are you worried about?"

[webcowgirl.livejournal.com]

Yeah, there's nothing like this to make you feel like "the terrorists have already won." That is, until you see the hordes of people rising up in support of this kind of crap. It's made me want to drop to my knees and sob in frustration.

[vulture23.livejournal.com]

Looks like little Tony has been jealous of Georgie's Patriot Act for some time, and now finally has a chance to get one of his own....

[narnee.livejournal.com]

They seem to be forgetting how many fundamentalists (of all types) are actually British-born or naturalised. I wonder how they plan on dealing with dual-citizens or those who have given up their previous nationality in lieu of British nationality.

A few points:

* How is "extremist" going to be defined? Are they planning on just deporting foreigners involved or visiting in particular Muslim extremist centres and websites? Or will it include extremist Protestants and Jews or non-religious political extremism like neo-Nazis and the FARC?
* What is defined as justifying terrorism? Is understanding why Al-Queda, FARC or Etta exists and saying so justifying terrorism? Does advocating violence to further a person's belief for instance include people from Zimbabwe advocating violent revolution against Mugabe?
* In some countries, people (especially children) are kidnapped and forced into being part of what might be considered terrorist activities; would they be automatically denied asylum?
* Will the list of preachers include Christian fundamentalists like Pat Robertson or only Muslim Imams?

If all of that is true -- and it would only make sense for it to be rather than solely towards Islamic fundamentalism -- then on the face of it I could be deported. I shall not go into the specifics of why in a comment on a public LJ post but there are several points of which I might fall foul, which are at least currently just me exercising my right of freedom and liberty. I am not the only one.

[biog.livejournal.com]

Current situation here in the UK reminds me of the political situation in Star Wars episode 3! Bomb blows up - People fearful - Opportunistic politicians use this to gain power/erode democracy - people accept it. It's a sad state of affairs it seems.