It's the end of the world as we know it

[ciphergoth]

The technical term for a risk that could destroy the whole future of humanity is an "existential risk".

Wikipedia on existential risk

Nick Bostrom: "Our approach to existential risks cannot be one of trial-and-error. There is no opportunity to learn from errors."

Eliezer Yudkowsky, Cognitive biases potentially affecting judgment of global risks [PDF]

Google search

Do you worry about the end of the world?

Comments

[ciphergoth.livejournal.com]

You're testing your new particle beam system on an island thought to be uninhabited. However, just as you set it off you discover that there are hundreds of people living there who have no contact with the outside world, and kill half of them.

You realise that this will cause great suffering in the other half, but fortunately you can avoid that by setting it off again and killing the other half, saving the day!

If this reasoning doesn't appeal to you, there are problems with your axiology.

[ciphergoth.livejournal.com]

(Note that the deaths are instantaneous and painless. Furthermore you act so swiftly that one half has no time to notice the deaths of the others before their own deaths occur)

[emanix.livejournal.com]

LOL can I have one of those systems, please?

I get what you're saying here, but I don't think we're actually disagreeing. The question you asked, after all, was 'do you worry about the end of the world?' - which I translate to mean 'do I fear it?' and no, really, I don't. Do I treasure life, and think it's worth holding on to? Yes I do.

So no, I wouldn't destroy the other half of the island, unless the people themselves asked me to. I do think that existence has some value, and that conscious beings have a right to personal sovereignty.
The points I made above were speaking from the point of view of one of the islanders, not from the point of view of the person wielding a particle beam.

My point was that when you're talking about a state in which nobody exists to suffer it is harder to have an emotional response to that. The only way to really connect to that is through imagining that there are a few people left to struggle with the loss - I note that even your example requires at least one outside observer to suffer with the knowledge of having destroyed all these people. There's an entire genre of 'post-apocalyptic' films and books which would be distinctly hard to get into if there weren't a few survivors (though having thought of it, I'm kindof tempted to try making one).

The end of human life would be a waste, and it would be great to stop it from happening, it's just not something I'm ever going to have nightmares about - but I might have nightmares about surviving it.

[ciphergoth.livejournal.com]

I note that even your example requires at least one outside observer to suffer with the knowledge of having destroyed all these people So if you knew that your own death would very shortly follow no matter which you chose, then you'd kill all the islanders? Your values are rather solipsistic, it seems!

[emanix.livejournal.com]

My, what a lovely straw man you've built there!

No, not solipsistic. I already stated quite clearly that I value life and individual choice, and wouldn't point the 'death ray' unless I was specifically asked to by the individuals affected.

If I was offered the choice between saving myself and saving said islanders, who presumably outnumber me, and had no choice in the matter, I'd pick the latter, since as I said, I don't fear not existing - but that wasn't the choice presented. The choice presented was to kill them, or not kill them. I chose not to.

The comment which you've gleefully misinterpreted was about the difficulty of coming up with a situation that people can relate to where there is no survivor or outside observer. Talk about a world where, say, half of the population is killed off - as you did - and it's easier to see it as a bad thing.

[ciphergoth.livejournal.com]

I haven't proposed tradeoffs between your lives and theirs anywhere; that's irrelevant to what we're discussing.

You speak of the need for an outside observer, but if you and all the islanders die, there is no outside observer, and you still see that outcome as bad, in fact worse than the death of yourself and half the islanders. Your position still seems rather solipsistic to me but it's not consistent enough to draw out what the consequences should be.

You shouldn't need me to "close the doors" on the ways you try to escape the consequences of this thought experiment - you should be able to think of variants that counter your evasions, like the one in which you inevitably die, for yourself.

[emanix.livejournal.com]

I haven't proposed tradeoffs between your lives and theirs anywhere; that's irrelevant to what we're discussing.

Irrelevant to the original topic, sure. I used it as an example of how my world view isn't solipsistic. And I noted that you hadn't proposed it at the time - do keep up! You've ignored the fact that I did answer the question several times, as well.

I have tried to make two points here, firstly that seeing an outcome as bad is not the same as being scared of it, and following on from that, that suffering is more 'scary' than non-existence, I haven't made any value judgements about whether it's more or less 'bad' (of course, rationally, death is 'worse', as it's an irreversible* state as opposed to a potentially reversible one).
Your thought experiment, however, still missed my point. Both are bad, but suffering is simpler to imagine.
I *can't* have nightmares about not existing - after all, I'd remember precisely nothing. The only way to visualise it would be in terms of the effect on people other than myself, or in terms of - oh hey - suffering in the process of moving into that state.

Would I choose death over suffering myself? Maybe, if I thought that the suffering itself was also an irretrievable state. Do I think I have the right to make that choice for anyone else? No.

Let's really simplify this then:
death = bad
bad != scary

Since this is your journal and not mine, I'm not going to to illustrate my entire philosophy here. Maybe I'll get around to it in mine.

*Yeah, I know, cryonics etc. etc. Call it 'less reversible' if you prefer.

[ciphergoth.livejournal.com]

I thought about adding it at the time, but that game quickly gets boring. If you're posed with for example a trolley problem, it's just dull to try to evade the parameters of the thought experiment by saying "I leap aboard the trolley and bring it to a halt with a stick" - it's dull to make your counterpart have to specify all that stuff, like that you're too far from the trolley to do such a thing in time. You should make an effort to understand the import of the thought experiment, and not posit objections when you can see for yourself how you might close the doors on those objections.

It's good to see that you recognise that the end of humanity is bad; I hope it leads you to attempt to deliberately correct for the failure of imagination you describe in trying to weight it in your personal moral calculus.

(BTW cryonics people agree that death is irreversible, they just don't agree that legal death is death by that definition)

[emanix.livejournal.com]

*Sigh* I just re-read the whole comment thread, it would have probably been far quicker if I'd just pointed at purplerabbits's comment (up here (http://ciphergoth.livejournal.com/355932.html?thread=3719260#t3719260)) and said 'what she said'.

Import of thought experiment fully understood, but it was still irrelevant to what I was trying to say. I'd love to hear how you manage to imagine not existing, though.

Also, I don't 'recognise' that the end of humanity is bad, since 'bad' is a value judgement and not a statement of fact. I don't believe there is any universal truth that says death = bad, but in my personal opinion, it is.

(BTW cryonics people agree that death is irreversible, they just don't agree that legal death is death by that definition)
Useful to know. Thankyou.