Logical rudeness

[ciphergoth]

Consider the following exchanges:

1. Gerda:  So you believe that all belief is the product of custom and circumstance (or: childhood buffets, class struggle...). Isn't that position self-limiting? Mustn't you see yourself as reflecting only a single complex of circumstances?

Grobian:  Your objection is inapplicable, for it is merely the product of blind forces. Moreover, your childhood buffets were pernicious and regrettable, for they have set you against this truth.

2. Gerda:  So you believe that all knowledge comes from God in proportion to our virtue or worth, and that all ignorance, error, and uncertainty come from the Devil in proportion to our vices. May I ask what evidence you have for this remarkable thesis?

Grobian:  I pity you infinitely for your sins.

3. Gerda:  Doctor Grobian, I am not crazy! I stole the bread because my children were hungry. Why do you assume that every crime is caused by illness?

Grobian:  Why do you deny it?

Gerda:  I am not playing a game. I really want an answer to my question.

Grobian:  Obviously your ego cannot cope with the truth and you display this inadequacy in hostility to your doctor. I will not recommend your release.

4. Gerda:  So you believe x, y, and z. But you are mistaken. Consider evidence a, b, and c. What do you say?

Grobian:  It's a mystery. If I could understand it, I wouldn't believe it. I can't help it if it's the truth. One day perhaps you'll see the light too.

In each of these cases something has gone wrong with the process of debate.

Peter Suber, Logical Rudeness, 1987

Comments

[actionreplay.livejournal.com]

(3) is still pretty current among psychiatrists. I know plenty of people who have been told by their doctors that a) not liking their moron of a doc or b) arguing with the doc when doc makes assumptions are signs of illness. if you're young and female they will then slap a "borderline personality diagnosis" on you, thereby ensuring no-one ever gives you treatment for mental illness ever again.

[drdoug.livejournal.com]

In each of these cases I can't see that Gerda will make much headway in the conversation by trying to convince Grobian of the merits of an improved process of debate.

[valkyriekaren.livejournal.com]

Carl Sagan (in The Demon-Haunted World, which I shall never cease recommending to people) quotes the American revolutionary Ethan Allen on this subject:

Those who invalidate reason ought seriously to consider whether they argue against reason with or without reason; if with reason, then they establish the principle that they are labouring to dethrone; but if they argue without reason (which, in order to be consistent with themselves they must do), they are out of reach of rational conviction, nor do they deserve a rational argument,

[ciphergoth.livejournal.com]

To which I have to once again quote one of my favourite Dennett passages:

The philosopher Ronald De Sousa once memorably described philosophical theology as "intellectual tennis without a net", and I readily allow that I have indeed been assuming that the net of rational judgement was up. But we can lower it if you really want to. It's your serve. Whatever you serve, suppose I return service rudely as follows: "What you say implies that God is a ham sandwich wrapped in tinfoil. That's not much of a God to worship!" If you then volley back, demanding to know how I can justify my claim that your serve has such a preposterous implication, I will reply: "Oh, so you want the net up for my returns, but not for your serves?" Either the net stays up, or it stays down. If the net is down, there are no rules and anybody can say anything - a mug's game if there ever was one. I have been giving you the benefit of the assumption that you would not waste your time or mine by playing with the net down.

[simont]

That's not much of a God to worship!

Oh, I don't know. In terms of actually managing to feed the hungry, a ham sandwich beats the more usual suspects by a score of one person fed to nil.

[deliberateblank.livejournal.com]

a ham sandwich beats the more usual suspects by a score of one person fed to nil

There are 20 slices in an average loaf of bread. Since 5 loaves can feed 5000, that means a single ham sandwich can feed (5000 × (2 ÷ (5 × 20))) = 100 people.