Left to right

[ciphergoth]

Obviously the left-to-right political spectrum is a massive oversimplification, but just trying to squeeze politics into one dimension for a moment, I have a question...

[Poll #1281545]

Comments

[autopope.livejournal.com]

Note that calling any of these politicians "left wing" is at best, mutilating the language of political discourse.

And I notice you haven't put down any sequences in which Cameron is to the left of Blair. (If you evaluate current Tory and current Labour policy on civil liberties as the left-right axis of choice, then Cameron is to the left of -- or at least more liberal than -- Blair, at least on the basis of his stated positions on a number of topics.)

[ciphergoth.livejournal.com]

I didn't want to put in all 24 sequences, and I thought the ones in which Blair was to the left of Cameron and Obama to the left of McCain would be the most popular.

[autopope.livejournal.com]

I agree with you about Obama - McCain. It's just that the UK position is somewhat more complex.

(If you consider New Labour to be a continuation of post-Thatcherite conservative doctrine by other means, with better PR and the whole problematic Fabian social control agenda running as a subtext, and if Cameron really is trying to return the conservatives to something approximating their old one nation platform, while taking the libertarian wing's stance on social issues, then the Blair - Cameron crossover is not only plausible but possibly persuasive.)

[pengshui-master.livejournal.com]

It's certainly interpretation.

But it still seems to me that in general sweeping terms 'New labour' is more in favour if centralisation, than the tories. And by that measure you could still describe new labour as being to the left of Cameron.

[akicif.livejournal.com]

Going back to the 70s, though: Old Labour decentralised by giving increased responsibilities to the larger councils (cities and counties). The Tories, under Thatcher, did their best to disempower local government and pull the apron-strings in closer to Westminster.

So, to old fogies like Charlie and I, that very measure makes NuLab more right wing than the current tories (caveat: I see the main axis of political wossname in the UK twisitng somewhat clockwise - the left moves up the freedom/authoritarianism axis as the right move down it)

It's a hard row to hoe, being down in the bottom left corner of the compass - I saw a wonderful idea earlier today: posting MPs copies of 1984 in time for 5/11, but it turns out it's UKIP or the Libertarian Party who came up with it. Dilemma....

[ciphergoth.livejournal.com]

Well "some other order" is a valid option if that's what you want to pick...

[reddragdiva]

Cameron's an old-school Tory by nurture, and is a Blair-lite sockpuppet for marketing purposes. The problem is the age old question "who knows what the fucker would do in power?" George W. Bush projected himself as moderate centre-right before going batshit loco.

[henry_the_cow]

Hmm. I think there is much to be sceptical about David Cameron. Do we really believe he favours redistribution of wealth or that he proposed greater regulation of the finance industry before the crash? Johann Hari's article seems pretty fair to me. Even on civil liberties, the Tories seem keen on revoking the Human Rights Act, which is hardly a good sign.

What is really sad is that people are rushing from New Labour straight into the arms of the Conservatives, as if they would be any better. The Liberal Democrats, much as I despise their local representatives in Edinburgh, are more deserving of a chance at Westminster.

In Cameron's favour, he recently opposed a third runway at Heathrow in favour of a new high-speed train link from London to the North. That is a policy worth voting for.

[wechsler.livejournal.com]

4 radios for leftmost - second left - second right - rightmost may have worked.

I still haven't a clue what Cameron thinks he stands for, anyway; or for that matter, exactly what Blair thought he was playing at.

[palmer1984.livejournal.com]

I consider civil liberties to be an authoritarian/liberal issue, not a left/right issue.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_lj_sucks_/]

...at least on the basis of his stated positions on a number of topics

And that's where it all falls down.

Labour were left of the Conservatives on their stated positions. However, once they got into power...

To believe that the Conservatives are on the side of civil liberties, you'd have to believe that the party membership had been utterly gutted and replaced since the 80s and 90s.

[autopope.livejournal.com]

The average age of the conservative constituency party membership was hovering around 70 and aging by 11-12 months per year in the mid-1990s.

So it's not impossible that this is in fact the case.

(I have no actual up-to-date data, so I'm speculating here.)

[lovelybug.livejournal.com]

But it's a tough call

[aidan-skinner.livejournal.com]

The Obama-Blair ordering is difficult for me. Obama is less social democratic on things like health care or pensions. OTOH he has a strong protectionist streak that Blair thankfully lacked.

[wildeabandon.livejournal.com]

Whilst I went for the top option, if CBOM had been one of the options I'm not sure what I'd have chosen.

[ciphergoth.livejournal.com]

As I say to autopope above, "some other order" is a valid pick...

[palmer1984.livejournal.com]

It's difficult. I think both the political mood has shifted to the left since the financial crisis. Therefore I'm not sure you can compare Cameron now to Blair a year ago.

[ciphergoth.livejournal.com]

Also, I'd be interested to know what you make of Johann Hari's take on that (this article also sets out some important issues)

Johann Hari British Politics article archive - there are a few more on Cameron worth reading!

[palmer1984.livejournal.com]

Cameron and Blair are to the left of Obama and Mccain, simply because the UK is a slightly less right wing country than America. Something like the NHS would be unthinkable there, for example.

[palmer1984.livejournal.com]

But in the UK, it would be unthinkable for any party to attempt to get rid of the NHS.

[reddragdiva]

Thatcher had a good go at trying to set people up for its disposal.

[seph-hazard.livejournal.com]

It's plausible that my initial feeling of BOCM was coloured by emotion. BCOM may be more accurate. Not sure, though...

[reddragdiva]

Good Lord. McCain and Cameron aren't the same sort of conservative. Blair and Obama, no idea how they'd compare. Comparing US to UK can lead to attacks of gibbering.

[lizw.livejournal.com]

Blair and Cameron at the same point on the spectrum, then a small gap to Obama, then a larger gap to McCain.

[thekumquat.livejournal.com]

Ditto.

Although Obama himself might be more left-wing, his policies that he has to have in the environment he's in aren't.

[werenerd.livejournal.com]

yup

[akicif.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure you can put them in a line that projects neatly onto the x axis of the political compass (and probably not on the y axis either).

I think what I'd like to see would be a version of the political compass that gave you a vector, rather than a point - maybe taking stances before and after an election campaign, or over a calendar year - okay, getting a fair measure this way would be tricky.

[palmer1984.livejournal.com]

I'd quite like to know why so many people have put Obama to the left of one of both of the UK politicians. I don't think a US presidential candidate could be to the left of an electable UK politician and stand a chance of winning the election.

[alextiefling.livejournal.com]

Obama not to the left of Thatcher, even on the basis of Thatcher's record as of the 1983 general election?

[palmer1984.livejournal.com]

In terms of personal ideology, maybe. But Thatcher wasn't able to dismantle the NHS, for instance, and Obama, while he may be in favour of more equitable healthcare, would not be able to set up free universal healthcare. So in that sense Obama is to the right of Thatcher.

[devilgate.livejournal.com]

My gut reaction is something like Obama - BlairCameron - McCain, where BlairCameron means I can't quite work out which way round they should go. And as you say, the left/right axis is much too simplistic for the real world. And it's probably unrealistic to put any mainstream USAmerican politician to the left of any British one.

Ball of contradictions, me.

[henry_the_cow]

Why Blair and not Brown?

[ciphergoth.livejournal.com]

No very good reason, just that we know more about Blair I guess. Which raises the question why McCain and not Bush, but I guess he's on my mind...

[henry_the_cow]

It might have been even more interesting if you'd added Thatcher to the list. Irrelevant, but interesting.

[alextiefling.livejournal.com]

My personal ordering, in as much as one can condense these quite complex politicians onto a single ordering, is Obama-Cameron-Blair-McCain.

Cameron is no leftie, but he claims to more interested in at least some social justice issues than Blair proved to be in practice. Obama, on the other hand, is in favour of sharing the wealth and more equitable national healthcare - things than none of the others have done a damn thing of use for.

[bileandvitriol.livejournal.com]

Blair - Stalinism with a human face.

Cameron - I am not Brown. I couldn't possibly screw things up as badly as him. And even though I am an Etonian, I still have more warmth and empathy than Gordo. And I wouldn't have Mandy back in government.

Obama - The second coming of Christ the King transcends your monodimensional politicospace.

McCain - Who cares? If he wins he'll be dead within the year, and you really should ask this instead of Palin. Who, I reckon, is closest to Blair of anyone - a sort of combination of "panem et circenses" and "Vote Fascist for a Third Glorious Decade of Total Law Enforcement"