Ask an atheist

[ciphergoth]

In a discussion about religion in wildeabandon's journal, meihua writes: "this seems to have turned into me interrogating you. [...] Is there anything you'd like to challenge me on, instead?"

I think it's only fair enough to open up my own beliefs to the challenges of others, since I'm always keen to respond when theists invite me to give my perspective on some aspect of their beliefs as wildeabandon has in a series of recent posts. So, is there anything you'd like me to respond to?

Rules:

• You don't have to read this thread. This post is an invitation, not a challenge; if you don't like to read me talking about this then feel free to skip this.
• Be honest. Please don't advance arguments you don't personally buy, unless you're also an atheist and you want to discuss how best to counter it.
• If you come to change your mind about the validity of an argument, think about how you can generalise the lesson learned so as not to misassess similar arguments in future.
• Don't just match the politeness of what you reply to, but try to exceed it - see Postel's Law. Otherwise it is very easy to end up with a thread where each contributor thinks they are merely matching the snark level of the other, and yet the thread starts with the very slightest suggestion of rudeness and finishes with "please choke on a bucket of cocks".

Comments

[ciphergoth.livejournal.com]

I don't think I mean anything very different from the standard meaning - maybe if you have any interesting corner cases in mind I could say what I think about them?

[friend-of-tofu.livejournal.com]

Just wondering how you define it, and whether you apply it to exceptions or not.

What is the 'standard' meaning and what is your interpretation of what that applies to?

[ciphergoth.livejournal.com]

Forgive me if this is an ungenerous thought, but I wonder if you want me to state a definition so that you can show that it's unsatisfactory? If so I concede the point immediately; outside of mathematics, definitions are unsatisfactory. But if there's a particular corner case you're interested in (eg is it useful to consider pantheism a kind of theism?) I can probably say something more useful.

As far as what the standard definition is, Google has a bunch, though some of those seem to equate it with monotheism which, like, has its own perfectly good word and doesn't need to go stealing words we can use for something else.

[friend-of-tofu.livejournal.com]

Er, I just asked for your definition because, you know, I thought the point of this thread was to ask YOU about YOUR beliefs, not to ask you to expound other people's theories. And because everyone has their own version/interpretation, so it's interesting to know where you're coming from.

Have I missed something?

[friend-of-tofu.livejournal.com]

(For example, I don't know if you mean the first or the 2nd of these definitions when you say it;

Theism is the belief in the existence of one or more divinities or deities. There is also a narrower sense in which theism refers to the belief that one or more divinities are immanent in the world, yet transcend it, along with the idea that divinity(s) is/are omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent.)

[ciphergoth.livejournal.com]

Fair enough. Well I think of theism as the belief in a deity or deities. When I think of deity, I mainly think of a being capable of emotion and purpose who is in some sense not made of the same "stuff" as us (eg did not result from evolution) and generally no-one on Earth is beyond their power.

[friend-of-tofu.livejournal.com]

OK, thanks. So would I be correct in concluding that you're not meaning to include eg non-deity based practices such as Taoism, or worship of time/place-specific or clearly limited deities in this definition?

[friend-of-tofu.livejournal.com]

I ask all this because I'm never sure if the word is typically being used to mean 'anybody with a religious/spiritual belief' or if it refers to specific kinds of religious belief.

[ciphergoth.livejournal.com]

Don't know enough about Taoism to comment. I'm surprised to see the word "deity" used about anything which is limited in both time and place and I'm not sure I'd think of that as theism, but of course I'd consider it just as mistaken, as with pretty much any belief in intelligence that did not arise via evolution.