Ask an atheist

[ciphergoth]

In a discussion about religion in wildeabandon's journal, meihua writes: "this seems to have turned into me interrogating you. [...] Is there anything you'd like to challenge me on, instead?"

I think it's only fair enough to open up my own beliefs to the challenges of others, since I'm always keen to respond when theists invite me to give my perspective on some aspect of their beliefs as wildeabandon has in a series of recent posts. So, is there anything you'd like me to respond to?

Rules:

• You don't have to read this thread. This post is an invitation, not a challenge; if you don't like to read me talking about this then feel free to skip this.
• Be honest. Please don't advance arguments you don't personally buy, unless you're also an atheist and you want to discuss how best to counter it.
• If you come to change your mind about the validity of an argument, think about how you can generalise the lesson learned so as not to misassess similar arguments in future.
• Don't just match the politeness of what you reply to, but try to exceed it - see Postel's Law. Otherwise it is very easy to end up with a thread where each contributor thinks they are merely matching the snark level of the other, and yet the thread starts with the very slightest suggestion of rudeness and finishes with "please choke on a bucket of cocks".

Comments

[some-fox.livejournal.com]

Reading through all the comments here I realise that what baffles you is why sensible people choose to have religious beliefs. I think the answer lies in the existential givens. Existentialism tells us that the following things terrify people:

* Death,
* Uncertainty (about what to do or what happens),
* Realising they are free to choose
* Realising that life is meaningless and the only meaning there is is that which we create which could just as well be otherwise.

I don't find religious belief baffling at all. It takes away all of these (as do many other things that we choose to believe in)

[some-fox.livejournal.com]

Before people leap on me I'm not saying all people are religious for these reasons or that all religions are about escaping these givens. Many branches of Buddhism, for example, are based on looking these right in the face. It is just a very good answer to the question of why sensible people might choose to be religious if you're looking for.

And personally I believe that very few people go through life without a few unjustifiable beliefs that help them not to look at this stuff too closely.

[jhg.livejournal.com]

Good heavens yes. As an amateur, I suspect that (oh all right, one of my lecturers said it and I was impressed. He was funny!) it's psychologically necessary to not confront your 4 bullet points all the time - i.e., you need to spend most of your time getting on with living your life, not sobbing into an armchair and going insane.

[some-fox.livejournal.com]

*grin* yep they are the big scaries I reckon.

[alextiefling.livejournal.com]

Ack. I just realised my response to your previous comment is pre-empted by this one. Sorry. Not intending to teach you to suck eggs.

[ciphergoth.livejournal.com]

I can see all that, but I just... I know that everyone has biases that obscure their rational thought, but I just can't quite take in that they can do that much. To smart people. Who've really thought about it. I mean yes, clearly my gut is wrong and they can, but still it's this disconnect between my perception and my gut that makes it itch at me.

[some-fox.livejournal.com]

I get that. There's a lot of stuff that people think, say and do that mystifies me given how far it strays from how I see things. I guess religious beliefs seem more explicable to me than some of the others. But I definitely get how that kind of thing can itch at you.

I have three major ones itching at me atm which I may write contraversial posts on at some point if I ever have the nerve. I expect my views on anti-depressants, break-ups and gender may prove to be even more contraversial than yours on religion ;-)

[plumsbitch.livejournal.com]

Am coming in late to this, but I find the exchange between these two comments, and the way each of you anatomise your 'itches' fascinating, and the subtext that there is something we might for eg call an 'itch dynamic', which functions for you, P, around religion, and for you, M, on say gender. And that this dynamic/process, both as distinct to and linked in with the trigger subjects, is something we might be able to unpick.

[some-fox.livejournal.com]

Oh really interesting. I'd never thought of the 'itch' way of seeing it until ciphergoth mentioned it but of course I have things that itch me too. It makes it easier for me to understand his views, although I wish he itched on the same things as me because I'd love to channel that energy and commitment to something I regard as important rather than something he thinks is important ;-)

[alextiefling.livejournal.com]

Of course, not every religious belief takes away all four of those things, in whole or in part. Indeed, Taoism is mostly about accepting that all four of those are real, and that they needn't be terrifying.

Most pagan religions don't do away with death.
Most versions of (non-Calvinist) Christianity don't take away either kind of uncertainty.
Judaism certainly doesn't take away free will.
Buddhism is arguably somewhat about dealing with the meaninglessness of life, or at least of most of it.

[some-fox.livejournal.com]

Thanks for that (and the other comment!) It's useful to hear some of the ones besides Buddhism that don't do this. Do you know anything about 'god is dead' Christian theology. I heard once that there was a whole branch of Christian theology that didn't believe in a God but still held to Christian ways of thinking and thought that'd be an interesting one for ciphergoth

[alextiefling.livejournal.com]

I'd only dimly heard of this myself. I'm afraid my research skills only run to Wikipedia at the moment, but that offers this, which is of some interest and offers some further reading.

[friend-of-tofu.livejournal.com]

Judaism certainly doesn't take away free will.

Catholicism is rather big on free will too, dear ;-P

*takes off pope hat*