Ask an atheist

[ciphergoth]

In a discussion about religion in wildeabandon's journal, meihua writes: "this seems to have turned into me interrogating you. [...] Is there anything you'd like to challenge me on, instead?"

I think it's only fair enough to open up my own beliefs to the challenges of others, since I'm always keen to respond when theists invite me to give my perspective on some aspect of their beliefs as wildeabandon has in a series of recent posts. So, is there anything you'd like me to respond to?

Rules:

• You don't have to read this thread. This post is an invitation, not a challenge; if you don't like to read me talking about this then feel free to skip this.
• Be honest. Please don't advance arguments you don't personally buy, unless you're also an atheist and you want to discuss how best to counter it.
• If you come to change your mind about the validity of an argument, think about how you can generalise the lesson learned so as not to misassess similar arguments in future.
• Don't just match the politeness of what you reply to, but try to exceed it - see Postel's Law. Otherwise it is very easy to end up with a thread where each contributor thinks they are merely matching the snark level of the other, and yet the thread starts with the very slightest suggestion of rudeness and finishes with "please choke on a bucket of cocks".

Comments

[ciphergoth.livejournal.com]

Well, sure, but the religious believers I'm actually trying to convert aren't like that; I'm not going to prevent any suicide bombings by converting them.

[damerell.livejournal.com]

Sure, but I think Dawkins is right that it's all part of the same ball of snakes, that moderates lead inevitably to extremists - and while one might not be regularly talking to the extremists, the sense that they're around leads (me, anyway) to fret more about religion than I do about sport.

[ciphergoth.livejournal.com]

I'm wary, because I *want* to believe this. I'd much rather think I was doing my best to make the world a better place, rather than scratching at a mental itch. But there are plenty of examples of moderates giving the extremists trouble in a way that we never can, and so I find it hard to be convinced.

In keeping with my role as Greta Christina's biggest fanboy, an interesting related blog entry by her. And when she says "I actually think my first vision may be more plausible than the second." I agree with her.

[damerell.livejournal.com]

Hm. That's got the free ride in, where if I say Thatcherism's a big load of hooey that's a normal opinion but if I say God's a big load of hooey that's disrespectful etc. (I know I'm preaching to the choir here).

So I guess it might just be itch-scratching, but absent the free ride, it's an itch that's OK to scratch.

[valkyriekaren.livejournal.com]

I'd much rather think I was doing my best to make the world a better place, rather than scratching at a mental itch.

You scratch the itch, I'll get on with the other stuff. Seriously, there are good people working on dismantling religious privilege without bothering too much about converting anyone.

(Taking the professional hat off for a bit, it makes my brain itch too because I can't understand the double-think that allows people to believe in an interventionist god when there's absolutely no good evidence, other than some old books, of said intervention. But I don't think people believing it actually harms anyone - it's only when people justify bigotry, hatred, killing and oppression through those beliefs that my hackles get raised.)

[alextiefling.livejournal.com]

Can we dismantle religious privilege together? I'm rather afraid it's going to make my own denomination smaller, uglier, and more dangerous unless we get rid of it.

[ciphergoth.livejournal.com]

I've never had reason to believe that there was a single one of the aims of the BHA that you disagreed with.

[friend-of-tofu.livejournal.com]

It's a good entry. But I, of course, think the second vision is more likely than the first, because I find it easier to imagine significant numbers of people shifting towards forms of religion more suitable for a tolerant and inclusive world than to imagine them abandoning it entirely. I'd be happy with either, though - if people don't need religion, that's fine. Although I do wonder what would happen to a person who had an inexplicable spiritual experience in the world of the first example - would they end up sectioned for being dangerously crazy?