Ask an atheist

[ciphergoth]

In a discussion about religion in wildeabandon's journal, meihua writes: "this seems to have turned into me interrogating you. [...] Is there anything you'd like to challenge me on, instead?"

I think it's only fair enough to open up my own beliefs to the challenges of others, since I'm always keen to respond when theists invite me to give my perspective on some aspect of their beliefs as wildeabandon has in a series of recent posts. So, is there anything you'd like me to respond to?

Rules:

• You don't have to read this thread. This post is an invitation, not a challenge; if you don't like to read me talking about this then feel free to skip this.
• Be honest. Please don't advance arguments you don't personally buy, unless you're also an atheist and you want to discuss how best to counter it.
• If you come to change your mind about the validity of an argument, think about how you can generalise the lesson learned so as not to misassess similar arguments in future.
• Don't just match the politeness of what you reply to, but try to exceed it - see Postel's Law. Otherwise it is very easy to end up with a thread where each contributor thinks they are merely matching the snark level of the other, and yet the thread starts with the very slightest suggestion of rudeness and finishes with "please choke on a bucket of cocks".

Comments

[ciphergoth.livejournal.com]

An excellent question, and one I've been giving a lot of thought recently.

I don't really think that getting rid of religion is our first and most important priority in making the world a better place. I haven't failed to notice that I know quite a few people who are religious and also politically radical in ways I approve of. I don't really buy Dawkins's argument that we must attack moderate religion because it provides cover for fundamentalism. I do think that religion is an error and I will overall do good if I can free some people of that error. But I don't think it will do some tremendous, world-changing amount of good that deeply deserves all the rhetorical might I can bring to play.

The truth is, and I've recently said this to seph_hazard and booklectic, I do it because it makes my brain itch! I look at the things people say about their beliefs and I feel the itch come on - how can they think that? How is it possible that that (often) highly intelligent, thoughtful, probing head can contain that belief? Rationally I just about see how it can happen and it sort of makes sense, but on a gut level, when it's real people I really know, I just can't fathom it, and I'm hypnotised by this mystery.

I'd probably do better to scratch at it less, I am sure, but it itches so much!

[palmer1984.livejournal.com]

It's generally a combination of:

1) God might exist.
2) It makes me happier to believe that God does exist.

[palmer1984.livejournal.com]

Or at least that's what it was for me.

[ciphergoth.livejournal.com]

but, you know, smart people, giving the matter serious thought! I have a hard time bending my brain around the idea that what you describe is working on them. I'm not sure you're wrong, I just can't get my head around it.

[palmer1984.livejournal.com]

Religious experience (that which you get from prayer, from ritual, and from belief) is awesome. I haven't been able to experience anything like it since becoming an atheist, though sometimes I think I can get something near it from looking at art/reading poetry. I can absolutely understand why people believe in God, and go to church. It is a combination (I think) of that experience, and the fact that God might exist. They want to have these kind of experiences on a regular basis, and also they tend to have some sort attempt at a logical argument to go with it. In my case it was "well, it might be true - the universe had to have a creator.

[palmer1984.livejournal.com]

Sorry, I meant they need a logical argument of some sort for God because these religious experience require belief in a God (or in something "beyond" the physical world).

Faith and reason is what Catholics call it :)

[friend-of-tofu.livejournal.com]

Not for me. But you may be talking about specifically Christian beliefs here.

You may want to consider the importance of what might be considered supernatural or magical experiences, rather than generally spiritual ones ie where a person believes they have experienced something which cannot be adequately explained in purely mechanistic terms.

[elsmi.livejournal.com]

a) Is this itch the same or different than the perhaps-more-general "Someone is wrong!on the internet!" itch?

b) If different, in what way(s)?

[ciphergoth.livejournal.com]

Oh, no, it's definitely got its own flavour. No other error comes anywhere close to religion for making smart people say things you don't expect to hear smart people saying.

Brain itch

[jhg.livejournal.com]

I hear they've developed a new treatment, to be taken by means of semi-gaseous particulate infusion, which helps a great deal with that.

[meihua.livejournal.com]

I deeply sympathise with your reply here. :)

[alextiefling.livejournal.com]

Funnily enough, it's a similar sort of itch that keeps me coming back to Christian theology and wrestling with it, rather than giving up and becoming either an atheist or a brain-turned-off man-in-the-pew. It scratches my itch better than anything else to have an opinion, not to be irreparably attached to it, and to be able to debate it with others.

[friend-of-tofu.livejournal.com]

Thank you for a really informative answer to my question.

I think I understand the concept of 'itch', and certainly I think we all have that about certain things - I do have it about things which seem obviously WRONG!!1! - sexism, for example - where I find myself boggling that people actually hold certain kinds of views. I suppose the difference for me is that I never see simply having vague, inexplicable or untestable beliefs as boggling unless they also encompass things which are obviously bad and hateful in a real way (the sexism, again, or homophobia, or racism, or promotion of militarism, or greed, etc etc etc) Maybe it's just that I think the world is really a peculiar place, so I can usually understand how someone might hold beliefs which seem odd, even if I don't share them. I'm generally interested in finding about how people think about things, and trying to put myself in their shoes.

Interestingly, I think one of the thoughts which started me towards being an atheist was also one which drove me away from it (as well as generally frustrating behaviour on the part of atheists that I witnessed) - I believe humans are fundamentally quite stupid an incompetent. I remember thinking when quite young - 5 or 6 - that everything written about God *couldn't* be true because humans had come up with it, and the possibility of humans getting the cosmos entirely right seemed absurdly unlikely. Of course, when older, I recognised that this uncertainty went the other way too...

One point where we differ, I think, is in the assumption of the difference between 'smart' people and everyone else. I don't really believe in most of the measures of intelligence our culture applies and I regard the vast majority as predominantly class-based. I certainly don't regard myself as more than averagely intelligent. We could all use our brains more efficiently, and it's frustrating when I see someone apparently not doing that, but it doesn't mean they can't, just that they don't know how (or possibly choose not to on some level). It's sad, but it's not hopeless. I do find the "we're smarter than those other idiots" attitude to be one of the worst tropes of Smug Atheists - it's not at all universal, but it was one of the first things to make me angry and disillusioned with atheism, and there still seems to be plenty of it about.

[ciphergoth.livejournal.com]

I'm generally interested in finding about how people think about things, and trying to put myself in their shoes And of course, if I wasn't, it wouldn't make my brain itch so much when they believed strange things.

when older, I recognised that this uncertainty went the other way too Yes, human falliability is a factor. But in the process of arriving at the truth, science is precisely a set of mechanisms that counteract human fallibility, while religion is a set of mechanisms that elevate it.

'smart' people I think we disagree less than you might think - I'm sure a lot of what makes smart people smart is simply a culturally-imbued willingness to turn their minds to thinking hard about such things in the first place. Still, that does make a big difference.

one of the worst tropes of Smug Atheists Note that I've only used the word "smart" about believers in this thread. I'm not saying the obnoxious atheist is a myth, but as I discuss above, I'd be careful to correctly calibrate your perception about how often that's said; one very smart contributor to this thread has seen that where it wasn't happening, and I know that all famous atheists are accused of saying this while none of them do.

[friend-of-tofu.livejournal.com]

I know that all famous atheists are accused of saying this while none of them do

I agree, and I don't think that's right - I firmly don't agree with some of the remarks made above. But (assuming I'm parsing this correctly), I think it would be fairer to say 'few', not 'none'. I'm actually thinking more of the sort of things which made me stop wanting to identify as an atheist in the first place - this happened long before any kind of active spirituality.

I think we disagree less than you might think - I'm sure a lot of what makes smart people smart is simply a culturally-imbued willingness to turn their minds to thinking hard about such things in the first place. Still, that does make a big difference.

Maybe. But I'm not sure I even believe in the concept of 'smart people'. Smart actions, maybe, but smart people, not so much.

in the process of arriving at the truth, science is precisely a set of mechanisms that counteract human fallibility, while religion is a set of mechanisms that elevate it

Big generalisations, of course (hell, if there wasn't so much 'bad science', Ben Goldacre'd be out of a job!), and also those which assume a particular form of 'science' and 'religion'. But leaving even that aside, I'd agree mostly with the former but not so much with the latter part of that sentence, because it elides the truth-seeking element of many religious/spiritual paths. That doesn't mean that they necessarily take the form of what we might regard as scientifically rigorous experiment, but I'm not sure they always inevitably elevate fallibility. And can highly personalised paths even be said to be 'a set of mechanisms', particularly if they contain events which are extremely circumstantial? It might be fairer to say that I regard 'science' and 'religion' as words of indistinct and variable meaning describing events which are ranged across a spectrum of human experience - sometimes they're far apart, sometimes extremely close, rarely absolutely opposed. And yes, this is at least as much of a generalistion!

I don't think I'm expressing this well. I suppose what I'm trying to say is that there are very few beliefs that I consider 'strange', because I think I can generally get my head round *why* people believe things, even if they're things I find weird or WTF!? in relation to myself. I don't for example, think David Icke is mad, even though I think he's wrong. At least it's interesting.