Come on with the rain, there's a smile on my face

[ciphergoth]

The scene with spikeylady went incredibly fabulously; see her friends-only entry for details. We really did excel ourselves just as I'd hoped. Thanks to co-conspirators ergotia, lilithmagna and kitty_goth - you all rocked very hard. I don't think I can do justice to just how fab spikeylady was or is here. After the scene finished, we chilled for a long time, then did some other different scenes, slept, there was more play, then purplerabbits came over ergotia and lilithmagna went off to meet lilithmagna's Mum in the National Gallery and the four of us that remained went off to Camden to meet lolliepopp and djm4 for fantastic burgerful lunch at Ruby in the Dust, followed by shopping. Shopping in the glorious sunshine with such fabulous people after such an extraordinary evening was... was just the way all Sundays should be. Myself and spikeylady bought matching Clockwork Orange T-shirts as a memento of the scene - how sad are we?

After shopping, we popped into the Dev for a swift half, then spikeylady and I dashed off to St Pervertia for a swift last burst of play (she might otherwise be sitting comfortably for the journey home, which would never do) before dashing off to Euston to see her onto her train. *sigh* the whole seeing-people-onto-trains thing is most delightfully romantic, but there's a big downside - they aren't there afterwards...

Then I returned to the Dev, where kitty_goth and purplerabbits were still, and met kjersti, lproven, duranorak, dennyd, and were later joined by trishpiglet and babysimon after fortifying ourselves with Chinese fast food. Other LJers spotted: vikinghugs, and I'm told arkady was there but sadly I didn't meet her (though thinking about it, I did talk to someone who might have been her but didn't ask about LJ names)

purplerabbits is here now updating her LJ, we're probably going to watch "Clerks" and sit about drinking rather than trying to do anything more complex. She flies home tomorrow, but lunch with ergotia first is on the cards.

I'm disturbed by the lack of internationalism on my friends page. I'd assumed that the sorts of people I might tend to meet would in general reject patriotism and nationalism as a close cousin of racism and other irrational forms of supporting one person you don't know over another, and support instead the idea that we were on the side of the whole of humanity, regardless of colour or nationality. It seems I was mistaken.

jwz gladdened my heart today by writing an LJ for no particular reason about one of the finest albums ever pressed into plastic and aluminium. I have come to you today to speak of Cop Shoot Cop's 1994 album "Release." This album is just such a boot to the head, that as your attorney, I must advise you to obtain and listen to it immediately. Those of you who like the journal, listen to the album. Those of you who like the album, check out the journal. If you're still not convinced, consider that in the club he owns, the cash machine is programmed with subversive messages. my favorite complaint was from the guy who was puzzled that the ATM says ``Destroy Capitalism'' but charges him a $3 service fee. Irony is hard, let's go shopping!

Comments

[lizw.livejournal.com]

I'm disturbed by the lack of internationalism on my friends page. I'd assumed that the sorts of people I might tend to meet would in general reject patriotism and nationalism as a close cousin of racism and other irrational forms of supporting one person you don't know over another, and support instead the idea that we were on the side of the whole of humanity, regardless of colour or nationality.

I don't see patriotism and internationalism as an either/or proposition; that's one of the reasons I'm a member of the SNP. I also find that phrases such as "on the side of the whole of humanity" are pretty meaningless to me in practical terms. They negate the whole concept of sides, and it seems plain to me that sometimes there are sides to be taken.

I suspect this is probably a case of axiom lock, though, because I'm becoming increasingly aware of how all of this ties into my religion, which is pretty fundamental to me. The concept of choosing a side is theologically important in Asatru.

(Just to be clear, I'm not saying that these things are important to me because my religion says so - I'm saying that Asatru is the right religion for me because these things are important to me, and when I start seeing connections between random conversations and my religion, it's a good indicator that I'm in territory that's pretty central to who I am).

[ergotia.livejournal.com]

How does your religion feel about babies dying in Bagdhad? Did they choose to be on the wrong side?

[keirf.livejournal.com]

Argument by emotive language and fallacy of extension?

[ergotia.livejournal.com]

Once someone plays the religion card, I see no reason to abstain from emotive language - they have strayed way beyond the rational discourse pen. Fallacy of extension - if I understand you correctly, this wwill depend on what this religion has to say on reincarnation? If not, then please elucidate.

[keirf.livejournal.com]

By "fallacy of extension" I meant your implied "you believe in choosing sides, therefore you think that it's fair that babies are dying in Baghdad" - attacking an exaggerated version of your opponents position. A few posts down you use the ad hominem technique - the "if you're so naive as to believe that then you're not worth arguing with". These things don't really lead to a rational debate.

But then you are right that mentioning one believes in ancient Norse gods doesn't generally further rational debate either.

[ergotia.livejournal.com]

I dont think it is an exaggerated version. As fo the allegedly ad hominem point, it is not always invalid to refer to the circumstances of an individual asserting a proposition. I dont believe that the propsition "honourable war is possible" is verifiably true or false - therefore it is a matter of opinion and the naivety of the person asserting the opinion is relevant.

[lizw.livejournal.com]

I was making a general point, not a specific one about this war.

However, since you ask, my religion says that war, like anything else, should be waged honourably. That would mean avoiding civilian casualties wherever possible.

And if you think I'm bringing up my religion as a "card", then you misjudge me. I am not playing a game, trying to win an argument, or claiming that anyone should pay more attention to my views because they happen to coincide with the teachings of my religion. I am just explaining something about myself and how I view the concepts that ciphergoth mentioned, no more and no less. You may also not have taken on board this statement: I'm saying that Asatru is the right religion for me because these things are important to me, not the other way around.

[ergotia.livejournal.com]

Well, if you really are naive enough to believe in the concept of an honourable war there is clearly no point in my discussing war related issues with you any longer.

[lizw.livejournal.com]

*shrug* Maybe I'm naive, maybe we have different definitions of honour. We already seem to have different definitions of rationality, and probably of patriotism, internationalism and support, too, so one more wouldn't surprise me. Either way, I'm certainly happy to leave the discussion there.

I think we basically have axiomatically different worldviews, and the rest probably flows from that. The way I've chosen my friends (i.e. based mostly on acceptance of bi, poly and BDSM rather than any of my other choices) seems to have brought me lots of friends (and indeed some partners) whose worldviews are radically different from mine, so I'm kind of used to it - occasionally I feel a bit like a Martian, but mostly I just enjoy the diversity.

[juudes.livejournal.com]

I don't see patriotism and internationalism as an either/or proposition... they negate the whole concept of sides, and it seems plain to me that sometimes there are sides to be taken.

The problem comes when people take those sides purely on the basis of what nationality/race/religion they are. Patriotism for me means 'my country right or wrong', and that it abhorrent to me. I think this war is wrong, so how can I possibly support 'our' troops? (Note that different people give different meanings to the word 'support'.)

[lizw.livejournal.com]

Yeah, patriotism and support both mean something different to me than they do to you.

[ex-meta.livejournal.com]

'My country, right or wrong,' is a thing that no patriot would think of saying. It is like saying, 'My mother, drunk or sober'

-- G.K. Chesterton

What's a side?

[pavlos.livejournal.com]

I agree that one often has to take sides. More often than it first appears, in fact. But each side is a very complex set of people and not something as simple as a religion or a country.

For example, by making a certain decision one day at work, I may choose to take the side of "people who use whatever power they have as ethically as possible an who do not seek power for its own sake" over "people who always look to maximise their power over others and often act unethically to do so". This is what a side is like. Not "Scotland" or "Muslims". To me having to choose simplistic sides is manipulation from an elite.

The problem with my approach is that it's hard to distinguish the people on "your side" so you find them in the first place and then know if they're still on your side. No such problem with choosing a side like "Scotland", which I guess is why many people do.

Pavlos

Re: What's a side?

[ergotia.livejournal.com]

One should be capable of taking a position. I dont think that is the same as choosing a side.