OK, I'm not sure how we ended up discussing your personal beliefs, so feel free to stop if it annoys you, or to continue.
What I understand so far is that you have liberal but not radical political beliefs and you've taken one of the main faiths that were on offer in your country (you didn't become Buddhist, for instance) but you identify with a "nice" branch of that church that rejects certain negative practices of the church, and you personally reject some other practices or teaching on your moral grounds.
The argument that I was putting forward, against Paul, is that religion is not simply delusion but it is a mixture of willful fantasy and politics. As far as the fantasy goes, I'm in favor of everyone enjoying their favorite fantasies so long as we all get along without imposing our fantasies on each other. I play fantasy games, you go to church. Fine. It makes us happy, and we can still have perfectly rational discussions about prices, internal combustion engines, etc.
One reason that an Atheist might actually care to convert a Believer, and the opposite for that matter, is the politics. Take for example the concept of creation. It seems clear to me that Christians who believe in a more or less direct creation (as opposed to the New Age concept of God as uber-geek playing with cellular automata on her computer) follow this line of thought:
God created us -> He is our father -> We must follow his morals -> We must follow the morals of our fathers -> Authority and order is good -> Oppression and exploitation is justified.
And they are afraid that Atheists are taking this line of thought:
Nobody created us -> Our existence and life has no external meaning -> Morality is an illusion -> Authority and order is bad -> Individual transgression and recklessness is acceptable.
For what it's worth I think Believers and Atheists do think that way, except for the final inference. Only a minority take that last inference and cause harm, but humans tend to fear that the other party is less moral and will go that far, so a cycle of distrust results.
So what I want to say here is do you see political positions like that embedded in your faith? Or is faith for you just a lens for perceiving the world through, and no more impinging on your conduct than that?
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timeasmymeasure
no subject
Date: 2009-01-11 01:07 am (UTC)What I understand so far is that you have liberal but not radical political beliefs and you've taken one of the main faiths that were on offer in your country (you didn't become Buddhist, for instance) but you identify with a "nice" branch of that church that rejects certain negative practices of the church, and you personally reject some other practices or teaching on your moral grounds.
The argument that I was putting forward, against Paul, is that religion is not simply delusion but it is a mixture of willful fantasy and politics. As far as the fantasy goes, I'm in favor of everyone enjoying their favorite fantasies so long as we all get along without imposing our fantasies on each other. I play fantasy games, you go to church. Fine. It makes us happy, and we can still have perfectly rational discussions about prices, internal combustion engines, etc.
One reason that an Atheist might actually care to convert a Believer, and the opposite for that matter, is the politics. Take for example the concept of creation. It seems clear to me that Christians who believe in a more or less direct creation (as opposed to the New Age concept of God as uber-geek playing with cellular automata on her computer) follow this line of thought:
God created us -> He is our father -> We must follow his morals -> We must follow the morals of our fathers -> Authority and order is good -> Oppression and exploitation is justified.
And they are afraid that Atheists are taking this line of thought:
Nobody created us -> Our existence and life has no external meaning -> Morality is an illusion -> Authority and order is bad -> Individual transgression and recklessness is acceptable.
For what it's worth I think Believers and Atheists do think that way, except for the final inference. Only a minority take that last inference and cause harm, but humans tend to fear that the other party is less moral and will go that far, so a cycle of distrust results.
So what I want to say here is do you see political positions like that embedded in your faith? Or is faith for you just a lens for perceiving the world through, and no more impinging on your conduct than that?