Ask an atheist

[ciphergoth]

In a discussion about religion in wildeabandon's journal, meihua writes: "this seems to have turned into me interrogating you. [...] Is there anything you'd like to challenge me on, instead?"

I think it's only fair enough to open up my own beliefs to the challenges of others, since I'm always keen to respond when theists invite me to give my perspective on some aspect of their beliefs as wildeabandon has in a series of recent posts. So, is there anything you'd like me to respond to?

Rules:

• You don't have to read this thread. This post is an invitation, not a challenge; if you don't like to read me talking about this then feel free to skip this.
• Be honest. Please don't advance arguments you don't personally buy, unless you're also an atheist and you want to discuss how best to counter it.
• If you come to change your mind about the validity of an argument, think about how you can generalise the lesson learned so as not to misassess similar arguments in future.
• Don't just match the politeness of what you reply to, but try to exceed it - see Postel's Law. Otherwise it is very easy to end up with a thread where each contributor thinks they are merely matching the snark level of the other, and yet the thread starts with the very slightest suggestion of rudeness and finishes with "please choke on a bucket of cocks".

Comments

[friend-of-tofu.livejournal.com]

The question I've always wanted to ask you - and this is a genuine question and actually not really a 'challenge' at all, IMHO - is;

WHY DO YOU CARE SO MUCH?

I honestly don't get it. Personally, I don't like most sport. I find it confusing, tedious, expensive & time-wasting. I think it's been responsible for perpetuating a lot of damaging attitudes and stereotypes (including racism & homophobia). Therefore, I don't watch sport, read about sport, attend sporting events or join in sporting conversations, because it's just not my thing.

I just don't understand why you seem so, well, obsessed with something you neither like nor want.

[ciphergoth.livejournal.com]

An excellent question, and one I've been giving a lot of thought recently.

I don't really think that getting rid of religion is our first and most important priority in making the world a better place. I haven't failed to notice that I know quite a few people who are religious and also politically radical in ways I approve of. I don't really buy Dawkins's argument that we must attack moderate religion because it provides cover for fundamentalism. I do think that religion is an error and I will overall do good if I can free some people of that error. But I don't think it will do some tremendous, world-changing amount of good that deeply deserves all the rhetorical might I can bring to play.

The truth is, and I've recently said this to seph_hazard and booklectic, I do it because it makes my brain itch! I look at the things people say about their beliefs and I feel the itch come on - how can they think that? How is it possible that that (often) highly intelligent, thoughtful, probing head can contain that belief? Rationally I just about see how it can happen and it sort of makes sense, but on a gut level, when it's real people I really know, I just can't fathom it, and I'm hypnotised by this mystery.

I'd probably do better to scratch at it less, I am sure, but it itches so much!

[palmer1984.livejournal.com]

It's generally a combination of:

1) God might exist.
2) It makes me happier to believe that God does exist.

[palmer1984.livejournal.com]

Or at least that's what it was for me.

[ciphergoth.livejournal.com]

but, you know, smart people, giving the matter serious thought! I have a hard time bending my brain around the idea that what you describe is working on them. I'm not sure you're wrong, I just can't get my head around it.

[friend-of-tofu.livejournal.com]

Not for me. But you may be talking about specifically Christian beliefs here.

You may want to consider the importance of what might be considered supernatural or magical experiences, rather than generally spiritual ones ie where a person believes they have experienced something which cannot be adequately explained in purely mechanistic terms.

[elsmi.livejournal.com]

a) Is this itch the same or different than the perhaps-more-general "Someone is wrong!on the internet!" itch?

b) If different, in what way(s)?

[ciphergoth.livejournal.com]

Oh, no, it's definitely got its own flavour. No other error comes anywhere close to religion for making smart people say things you don't expect to hear smart people saying.

Brain itch

[jhg.livejournal.com]

I hear they've developed a new treatment, to be taken by means of semi-gaseous particulate infusion, which helps a great deal with that.

[meihua.livejournal.com]

I deeply sympathise with your reply here. :)

[alextiefling.livejournal.com]

Funnily enough, it's a similar sort of itch that keeps me coming back to Christian theology and wrestling with it, rather than giving up and becoming either an atheist or a brain-turned-off man-in-the-pew. It scratches my itch better than anything else to have an opinion, not to be irreparably attached to it, and to be able to debate it with others.

[friend-of-tofu.livejournal.com]

Thank you for a really informative answer to my question.

I think I understand the concept of 'itch', and certainly I think we all have that about certain things - I do have it about things which seem obviously WRONG!!1! - sexism, for example - where I find myself boggling that people actually hold certain kinds of views. I suppose the difference for me is that I never see simply having vague, inexplicable or untestable beliefs as boggling unless they also encompass things which are obviously bad and hateful in a real way (the sexism, again, or homophobia, or racism, or promotion of militarism, or greed, etc etc etc) Maybe it's just that I think the world is really a peculiar place, so I can usually understand how someone might hold beliefs which seem odd, even if I don't share them. I'm generally interested in finding about how people think about things, and trying to put myself in their shoes.

Interestingly, I think one of the thoughts which started me towards being an atheist was also one which drove me away from it (as well as generally frustrating behaviour on the part of atheists that I witnessed) - I believe humans are fundamentally quite stupid an incompetent. I remember thinking when quite young - 5 or 6 - that everything written about God *couldn't* be true because humans had come up with it, and the possibility of humans getting the cosmos entirely right seemed absurdly unlikely. Of course, when older, I recognised that this uncertainty went the other way too...

One point where we differ, I think, is in the assumption of the difference between 'smart' people and everyone else. I don't really believe in most of the measures of intelligence our culture applies and I regard the vast majority as predominantly class-based. I certainly don't regard myself as more than averagely intelligent. We could all use our brains more efficiently, and it's frustrating when I see someone apparently not doing that, but it doesn't mean they can't, just that they don't know how (or possibly choose not to on some level). It's sad, but it's not hopeless. I do find the "we're smarter than those other idiots" attitude to be one of the worst tropes of Smug Atheists - it's not at all universal, but it was one of the first things to make me angry and disillusioned with atheism, and there still seems to be plenty of it about.

[ciphergoth.livejournal.com]

I'm generally interested in finding about how people think about things, and trying to put myself in their shoes And of course, if I wasn't, it wouldn't make my brain itch so much when they believed strange things.

when older, I recognised that this uncertainty went the other way too Yes, human falliability is a factor. But in the process of arriving at the truth, science is precisely a set of mechanisms that counteract human fallibility, while religion is a set of mechanisms that elevate it.

'smart' people I think we disagree less than you might think - I'm sure a lot of what makes smart people smart is simply a culturally-imbued willingness to turn their minds to thinking hard about such things in the first place. Still, that does make a big difference.

one of the worst tropes of Smug Atheists Note that I've only used the word "smart" about believers in this thread. I'm not saying the obnoxious atheist is a myth, but as I discuss above, I'd be careful to correctly calibrate your perception about how often that's said; one very smart contributor to this thread has seen that where it wasn't happening, and I know that all famous atheists are accused of saying this while none of them do.

[babysimon]

Hehe. Thank you for asking this ;)

[friend-of-tofu.livejournal.com]

Thank you, I'll be here all week...

[damerell.livejournal.com]

I think part of the problem there is that when Arsenal fans have a large degree of control over the US government and send their military to kill vast numbers of Hotspur fans until they hate us all very much and blow themselves up on buses, when they want to teach in schools that the world was created by a man in a red scarf, when they want to prohibit adoption by people who follow different teams... we'll worry a bit more about sport. As it were.

[ciphergoth.livejournal.com]

Well, sure, but the religious believers I'm actually trying to convert aren't like that; I'm not going to prevent any suicide bombings by converting them.

[damerell.livejournal.com]

Sure, but I think Dawkins is right that it's all part of the same ball of snakes, that moderates lead inevitably to extremists - and while one might not be regularly talking to the extremists, the sense that they're around leads (me, anyway) to fret more about religion than I do about sport.

[friend-of-tofu.livejournal.com]

But I wasn't phrasing it in terms of threat, only of rough analogy. (And it's not as if sport-related violence hasn't been problematic in many countries, sometimes on a large scale)

If we're going to start worrying about the reasonableness of threats, and suggest that moderates encourage extremism, I shouldn't be worrying about religion. Maybe I should be worrying about men. If we're looking at the levels of sexual violence and domestic/ex-domestic violence in this country, I think I'm in far more danger of being stabbed in the street by an ex-partner than blown up by a suicide bomber. At 53, 600 sexual offences last year* (http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs08/hosb0708.pdf) and two women a week murdered by partners & ex-partners (http://www.amnesty.org.uk/content.asp?CategoryID=10309), especially if they're transwomen (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7543430.stm), I don't think religious extremists are my biggest problem. (Bit of a bugger for men too, as they're still twice as likely to be victims of violence - so they have to mistrust each other, or maybe themselves?)

Maybe when religious fanatics live in our homes, control our money, our children, our bodies and activities, when they are taught by everything in our culture that it's their inalienable right to do so...I'll worry a bit more about religious extremists. As it were.

I realise that not all men are violent, they're all part of the same ball of snakes, even 'nice guys' can be entitled and aggressive - and while one might not be regularly talking to the misogynists, the sense that they're around leads (me, anyway) to fret more about men than I do about religion.

(I'm aware that was a bit of a cheap shot, but your argument did rather invite it, I'm afraid. I've got a big brush too, and a large bucket of tar, right here.)

*p 25

[damerell.livejournal.com]

Touche'.

[emarkienna.livejournal.com]

But surely people do worry about these issues you list?

Okay, I take your point that worrying about these issues doesn't mean one should worry about every single man, although I don't think any atheists have said they worry about every single religious person(?)

Re: moderates encouraging extremism - I wouldn't say that all moderates encourage it, but I do see some merit in the argument that particular ideas put forward by moderates can be used to defend extremism, most notably, the idea that faith should be regarded as a virtue, and that someone's faith cannot be criticised.

I see this argument applied with the issues you list also: for example, rape myths that are commonly held by men - even though these may be men who will never commit a crime, it is still reasonable to question those ideas (and just to be clear, I'm not trying to make any judgement on comparing religion to rape myths, but just that sometimes it may perhaps be a valid tactic to question ideas held by "moderates" - possibly there are some less extreme examples).

[emarkienna.livejournal.com]

If I may answer this question for myself too - I think there are two reasons.

Firstly, I see religion as not simply a pastime like sport, it's about claims that are made about the Universe. So I am interested in that from an intellectual point of view, no different to any other kind of claim about existence of things or about events that may have happened.

Secondly, a reason why I concern myself more about religious than other philosophical claims is because religion does have a great deal of influence on the world, from prayers in schools, the push to teach creationism in science lessons, as well as it's influence on morality (and hence, politics) where arguments may be based on claims of what God says. A lot of my focus is not just the validity of religious claims themselves, but on political issues surrounding religion and atheism. (In the context of discussing with friends who are Christians, it is usually primarily the first reason that is more relevant, though.)

[jhg.livejournal.com]

I know! You don't get, for example Mill's followers having a big fight with Locke's.

[friend-of-tofu.livejournal.com]

I see religion as not simply a pastime like sport, it's about claims that are made about the Universe

I wouldn't deny tat, but it varies from person to person. For some, sport is more than just a pastime; for others, religion is not he be-all and end-all of their activities.

The political impact of religion is, of course, a whole other area from the beliefs and practices, and I think that's very important. But one doesn't have to be an atheist to find control by religious means worrying.

Again, I wasn't making a direct comparison in terms of the way religion and sport play out in the world - I was simply giving an example of something which is a very big deal to a lot of people but not to me.

[reddragdiva]

I'm mostly concerned with it insofar as it pisses me off. I used to get a lot more pissed off at human blithering stupidity; I don't think it's any less stupid, but I'm getting more tolerant of it insofar as it doesn't get too in my face.