Ask an atheist

[ciphergoth]

In a discussion about religion in wildeabandon's journal, meihua writes: "this seems to have turned into me interrogating you. [...] Is there anything you'd like to challenge me on, instead?"

I think it's only fair enough to open up my own beliefs to the challenges of others, since I'm always keen to respond when theists invite me to give my perspective on some aspect of their beliefs as wildeabandon has in a series of recent posts. So, is there anything you'd like me to respond to?

Rules:

• You don't have to read this thread. This post is an invitation, not a challenge; if you don't like to read me talking about this then feel free to skip this.
• Be honest. Please don't advance arguments you don't personally buy, unless you're also an atheist and you want to discuss how best to counter it.
• If you come to change your mind about the validity of an argument, think about how you can generalise the lesson learned so as not to misassess similar arguments in future.
• Don't just match the politeness of what you reply to, but try to exceed it - see Postel's Law. Otherwise it is very easy to end up with a thread where each contributor thinks they are merely matching the snark level of the other, and yet the thread starts with the very slightest suggestion of rudeness and finishes with "please choke on a bucket of cocks".

Comments

[mskala.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure I can offer an example of you linking to someone as patently ridiculous as Christopher Hitchens in particular, but I wasn't thrilled with this posting (http://ciphergoth.livejournal.com/317284.html). I looked at the comic you directly quoted and thought "Oh. That's sort of amusing. Let's see the rest of the strip." Then I looked at this one (http://cectic.com/163.html) and thought, "Well, that one wasn't funny, but okay, whatever, my own strip (http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/bonobo-conspiracy/) doesn't hit a home run every day either, let's see the next one." Then I looked at this one (http://cectic.com/155.html) and thought, "Wait a minute, are these all the same \"joke\"?" and after looking at the others you linked to, it appears that yes, they are. Oh, ha ha. That and the chorus of approval in the comments section don't make me feel that I'm looking at a community I want to join.

That doesn't mean jokes about religion can't be allowed. I like SinFest (http://www.sinfest.net/), for example. It might be interesting to think about what's the difference between the two.

I don't know Greta Christina's work and I'm due out the door for something else basically right now without time to read it and form a real opinion. I do notice, in a glance at the front page of her Web log, that she has a bold headline asking "DO BELIEVERS REALLY BELIEVE WHAT THEY SAY THEY BELIEVE?" and I wonder how many atheists would be happy to have the same question asked about atheists and answered in the negative by theists discussing it among themselves without, y'know, asking the atheists.

[palmer1984.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure that pointing out that people believe in things with out any evidence in a cartoon strip constitutes "being an asshole".

I can also think that someone's beliefs are rather silly, while still respecting them. There is a difference between saying "all Christians are idiots" and saying "Christian views are very silly".

[mskala.livejournal.com]

Well, I'll say again: the people I see writing and replying to that posting don't look, in that posting, like a group I would want to be a member of. And that is very often the feeling I have when I observe atheists talking about atheism.

[webcowgirl.livejournal.com]

It's also how I feel when most Christians talk about Christianity - not a group I would want to be a member of.

[mskala.livejournal.com]

I'm not much inclined to join Christianity either, for similar reasons. And you know what, elaborating on why you feel that way, or especially why atheists are a group you want to be part of, would be a very good start on how to talk to theists about atheism without pissing them off.

[emarkienna.livejournal.com]

I'm not much inclined to join Christianity either, for similar reasons. And you know what, elaborating on why you feel that way

This is an approach that some atheists use - though it has the problem that a Christian can say that how other Christians behave doesn't mean all of them are like it. (Wouldn't criticising Christians' behaviour, as opposed to criticising a belief they hold, be more likely to piss them off...?)

or especially why atheists are a group you want to be part of, would be a very good start on how to talk to theists about atheism without pissing them off.

But I don't see atheism as any kind of group, it's just a description of me. Even if I thought every other atheist on the planet was a complete arsehole, I'd still be an atheist (possibly I might decide not to identify with the label atheism, but it wouldn't change my views on God - indeed, there do appear to be plenty of people who freely admit they don't believe in God, but avoid identifying as an "atheist").

[webcowgirl.livejournal.com]

Mostly I don't pick my friends based on their religion overall, but if people insist on bringing it up and talking about it all of the time and trying to convert me I'll stop hanging out with them.

That said, many of the atheists I know are quite witty, with varying degrees of "evangelicalness," so I do wind up hanging out with them by default - I don't pick them because that's how they believe, but the people I choose to spend time with frequently feel the same way I do about religion, but with differing degrees of enthusiasm.

[reddragdiva]

Atheists as a group? I'm picturing them gathering in irreligious nonservices, coming together to fail to worship a lack of God.

[meirion.livejournal.com]

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If I thought all Christians were like that, I wouldn't be one — and indeed wasn't for the longest time because the vocal Christians tend (unfortunately, but fairly naturally) to be the ones with the most extreme, most unpalatable views. They also wouldn't consider me to be a Christian anyway (which I should probably take as a compliment)!

[ciphergoth.livejournal.com]

None of those strips say that all believers are idiots, though. I think it's part of what I'm trying to say above that you take them to say that when I think there's a big distinction between what they say and "all believers are idiots".