ciphergoth | Two minute silence

The death of those 20 Iraqi children was indeed evil and wicked - but could have been avoided if the U.S Military hadn't been performing a public relations exercise by giving out sweets to them.

ie. the soldiers were the target.

The death of those 20 Iraqi children was indeed evil and wicked - but could have been avoided if the U.S Military hadn't been performing a public relations exercise by giving out sweets to them.

I hope this is meant somewhat sardonically? I mean, I'm sure you don't mean to imply the soldiers were at fault. It's just that it's easy to infer it from your comment. For me, it gets uncomfortably close to "He could have avoided his girlfriend getting raped if he hadn't given her a short skirt to wear as a present".

Please tell me I'm overreacting; it has been known.

I'm not too sure about the meaning of sardonic, but what I meant was those soldiers shouldn't have been there (putting aside whether they should have been in Iraq in the first place). I did not mean to imply it was those soldiers caused those childeren to die, but it really smacked of a public relations exercise (or even PsyOps) gone wrong.

Sure; I guess I just mean that the suicide bomber could have chosen *not* to kill the kids, but instead wait until all the sweets had been given out and the soldiers had pulled away before attacking. I think it shows how little respect the bomber had for the children and their lives (and, incidentally, for Iraqi lives in general) that he quite deliberately detonated where it was likely many would be killed or injured, probably knowing that many people both in the Arab and Western worlds would blame the US soldiers for being there in the first place. A PR coup for the bomber, in fact.

At least, that's how I see it. YMMV. In any case, I think it's a bit harsh to lay any culpability on the soldiers for this particular incident (I know you're not blaming them - just saying). I think giving out sweets is actually a decent thing for them to be doing, PR exercise or not.

That bombing was actually a drive by, and perhaps they thought that the children would be admitted to paradise, which is horrible, but it's how extremists think. As I said, it was an evil thing to do.

Indeed... although to be fair, now that they've invaded and destabilised the whole place, I don't think they have much choice but to try to gain the support of the local population... I'd rather they did that than that they reverted to their infamous Falluja tactics.

For the record, US soldiers have been giving out sweets to Iraqi children that they themselves have purchased or have received in packages from back home. That's not to say that there aren't PR/PsyOps exercises, but the majority of candy-giving is likely to be low-level infantry grunts just trying to find a reason to smile.

Can the American soldiers ever do anything right in your mind? Or will there always be some self-interested reason for them to do something nice and some way to blame them for others' actions? If you will damn them for "shock and awe" tactics (which I will as well, btw), if you will damn them for "hearts and minds" tactics, if you will damn them for just being friendly, when will you not damn them?

I think it is important to realise that the "grunts" are individuals who may indeed be acting out of simple kindness, but not to let that stop one being aware of the PR tactics of thise in command. Goerge Bush cant do anytrhing right as far as I am concerned but some of the soldiers out there may be nice enough guys - up to a point anyway.

It is important to be aware of PR tactics; all militaries use them in modern warfare.

What do you mean by some of the US soldiers in Iraq being "nice enough" up to a point? Please don't confuse all soldiers (or all Americans, but I know you don't do that) with the actions and opinions of the Chimp-in-Chief. Some of them are incredibly nice people; some of them are my friends and partners of my friends.

I mean that I personally cant imagine being a close friend of anyone who would willingly join the military. I have had clients who were soldiers and were lovely. However I suspect that if I had got to know them as friends sooner or later we would have discovered a massive difference in our politics/philosophy/ethics/whatever and been unable to sustain a friendship. I guess the "point" for me is the point where they have to kill someone "for their country" I would rather go to prison than be conscripted and have to do that.

I realise that such killing is viewed in many ways, including self defence and the defence of others. I just dont trust politicians and governments enough to let them decide for me who is the enemy. Sometimes the issues are relatively clear. I would have fought in a war against fascism for example, but times are very different now.

I also realise that for some the military is a way out of poverty and ignorance but quite honestly if that or crime were my only options I would choose crime.

The military is marketed far differently in the States than it is in the UK. The GI bill and college tuition help are heavily promoted, as are the training and later ease in job market. Ads tend to be toward skill and leadership rather than imagining oneself in combat or controlling a refugee situation. "Be all that you can be! You can do it, in the Army reserve!", for example. The first time I saw a recruiting commercial in a British theatre I was stunned.

My friends and I tend toward the progressive end of centrist, and I have a number of friends who were in the military at one time or another. Most got there through ROTC (Reserve Officer Training Corps), I believe, and some are stil in the reserve. National Guard are another group which for most of the last couple decades have been deployed to assist in natural emergencies rather than to shoot at anyone.

The news may not have made it there from over here, but now that there's a shooting war on, and people are over in Iraq for quite long periods of time with insufficient armour the military have been falling short of recruitment goals by close to 30%. The reserves and guard are also having recruiting difficulties, given that deployment pay tends to be rather lower than what many of the folks commanded in civilian jobs.

When they give out sugar-free sweets? Seriously, have you any idea how hard it is to find a dentist in Iraq right about now?

Can the American soldiers ever do anything right in your mind? Or will there always be some self-interested reason for them to do something nice and some way to blame them for others' actions?

I'm heartened to see it's not just me who wonders this. Sometimes I feel like a bit of an ideological leper these days.

I'm a born-and-bred American who is naturalised British and have lived in Scotland almost my whole adult life. I'm always an ideological leper. ;>

(You have *no* idea how nice it to is to encounter a native British person with views like yours.)

Grief, she's not alone, this was most certainly not the fault of the soldiers. I've met some very nice (and no nasty), intelligent, informed, reasonable serving US soldiers online.

In fact, I believe all of the ranting US extreme right wingers who are so visible online have nothing to do with the soldiers (or probably anyone else who helps others or tries to). If they did, they'd realise how many shades of grey there are in reality and be far less annoying! Those who do or have served or have relatives who have served tend to be far more clued into what's actually happening!

Still against this Iraq war though *wink* (not 'a Iraq war' and not overthrowing Saddam per se at all, just the timing... understandable but... let's just say too many side effects.)

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